quote:

Originally posted by saigonsmuggler:

quote:

Originally posted by WARPIG602:
Not entirely untrue. How long has Sig USA been designing handguns? And of thos desigsn, since we're on the topic, were released with no issues?

I am more of a Glock fan but conversely, how long has Glock been at designing Glocks before releasing their problematic Gen 4?

Designs by humans are fallible. How long have Apple and Google and Samsung been at their shits, yet each new release brings a whole boat load of issues.

That said, totally agreed that Sig's response has been less than satisfactory. They should be more like Samsung or Toyota or Sony - have their CEO come in front of the press, bow down steeply and apologize for the grave mistake.

The difference nad point I was making is that Sig is in fact "new" to designing guns. Yes, The Gen4 Glock had some minor issues in the beginning, nothing catostrophic that I recall.
So if we're keeping track, thats one issue, call it 2 for some kabooming 40's?

Sig, on the other hand, is batting .500 if theyre lucky. The issues are so bad they typically release a Gen2 version to correct it. Add to that the amount of time it takes Sig to finally get a gun to a point of usability.

quote:

Originally posted by GP229:
I'll bet that other manufacturers just can't wait for others to start drop testing their pistols on YouTube.

They've already started. Guy on this thread rolls through variations of the P320 as well as the G19.

https://pistol-forum.com/showt...safety-issues/page35

quote:

Originally posted by GP229:
I'll bet that other manufacturers just can't wait for others to start drop testing their pistols on YouTube.

What does that have to do with the current thread? If the a Glock was dropped on its slide and fired (it does not by the way) would that make it okay that the Sig does it?

I will guarantee that more than one diehard Sig fanboy rushed home last night with video camera in hand just dying to be the first to get a Glock or M&P or Kahr to fire when dropped.

Here is a compilation of all the successful attempts so far:

quote:

Originally posted by Pale Horse:

quote:

Originally posted by GP229:
I'll bet that other manufacturers just can't wait for others to start drop testing their pistols on YouTube.

What does that have to do with the current thread? If the a Glock was dropped on its slide and fired (it does not by the way) would that make it okay that the Sig does it?

Where do you see in his off-the-cuff comment such an implication?

What the hell is it, with some of you, that any comment that is not an out-right condemnation of Sig nor expressing the feeling that the sky is falling is automatically a defence of Sig or the P320?

Jebus, people, get a fracking grip.

Serious question. I don't understand the comments about SIG being new to designing pistols. Haven't they been doing so since the 70s??? This is as long or longer then Glock.

I mean sure they aren't Beretta or even Colt but it's not like they are some upstart company known for throwing caution and quality to the wind.

So my question is what qualifies as not new to weapons design. Again serious question not being obtuse or trolling.

Also although this is what I would see as a significant issue, no pun intended....ok maybe little pun, but anyway I would imagine this will be a bump in the road and will be SIGs slide to the face. Never forgotten but of little real consequence.

And I totally agree that there are more guns getting thrown all over the country right now that the next home invasion might just be stopped because somebody gets a Beretta 92 thrown upside the head by mistake. Everybody with a YouTube account and a mission is tossing all makes and models and or beating on them with all kinds of tools.

Sig GMbH has been the primary designer of all of their guns. Sig USA is somewhat new to the overall gun design, but Im sure they had help from Germany or other engineers.

Gotcha so we are differentiating from Sig Sauer and SIGarms etc.

That is probably a fair criticism.

quote:

Originally posted by GP229:
I'll bet that other manufacturers just can't wait for others to start drop testing their pistols on YouTube.

Yep.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXJt7o6fm7o

It's funny how over the course of a decade people went from "Omg the Glock trigger is so short its so dangerous" to now we have so many manufacturers trying to make the shortest and lightest trigger possible with a fully-cocked striker, not to mention all of the aftermarket triggers out there for all these striker pistols that reduce safety way more. And the industry thinks it's totally fine. Now the Glock trigger, with its relatively-long take-up and "wall" is one of "safest" triggers there is today. It would all be so silly if it wasn't so stupid.

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:

quote:

Originally posted by Pale Horse:

quote:

Originally posted by GP229:
I'll bet that other manufacturers just can't wait for others to start drop testing their pistols on YouTube.

What does that have to do with the current thread? If the a Glock was dropped on its slide and fired (it does not by the way) would that make it okay that the Sig does it?

Where do you see in his off-the-cuff comment such an implication?

What the hell is it, with some of you, that any comment that is not an out-right condemnation of Sig nor expressing the feeling that the sky is falling is automatically a defence of Sig or the P320?

Jebus, people, get a fracking grip.

I was simply trying to keep the thread about the Sig. A lot of people keep bringing up other guns a if they have anything to do with this. I have defended Sig and the P320 throughout this thread and others and have mentioned multiple times that I would still buy a P320. If you think my comment about keeping the thread on track towards him means I hate Sig then I don't know what to say. I don't hate Sig and have not made any assumptions about how they handled this and have not jumped to negative conclusions about the company or the gun. But I'm not a Super Fanboy so I am not willing to make excuses or defer for them either.

Feel free to look at my post history and see for yourself.

https://sigforum.com/eve/forums...800095824#8800095824

https://sigforum.com/eve/forums...330065824#8330065824

https://sigforum.com/eve/forums...170055824#1170055824

https://sigforum.com/eve/forums...950055824#5950055824

https://sigforum.com/eve/forums...190025824#5190025824

GP229- My apologies if you took offense. None was meant.

quote:

Originally posted by Chris17404:

quote:

Originally posted by GP229:
I'll bet that other manufacturers just can't wait for others to start drop testing their pistols on YouTube.

Yep.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXJt7o6fm7o

It's funny how over the course of a decade people went from "Omg the Glock trigger is so short its so dangerous" to now we have so many manufacturers trying to make the shortest and lightest trigger possible with a fully-cocked striker, not to mention all of the aftermarket triggers out there for all these striker pistols that reduce safety way more. And the industry thinks it's totally fine. Now the Glock trigger, with its relatively-long take-up and "wall" is one of "safest" triggers there is today. It would all be so silly if it wasn't so stupid.

Just to point it out for anyone who watches that video, that trigger is clearly modified or aftermarket and does not have the trigger tab. It fires when dropped because of the modifications. The whole video is showing why the Agency Arms modifications are dangerous.

You can see the trigger in shots from 0:37-0:39.

quote:

Originally posted by Pale Horse:
Just to point it out for anyone who watches that video, that trigger is clearly modified or aftermarket and does not have the trigger tab. It fires when dropped because of the modifications.

Yes, that was why I posted that video and for my comments. It's the aftermarket mods that make a Glock unsafe, yet other manufacturers are trying to beat Glock by making pistols that are on the very narrow edge of safe. That video shows a "Glock" but it's not a factory Glock, yet people are likely to equate it to a factory Glock and presume all Glocks are like that. Which they are not.

Not that TTAG is the end all be all source, but they are reporting that SIG is halting P320 production temporarily

"SIG SAUER has stopped production of their P320 pistol. Responding to “drop safety” issues, the New Hampshire gunmaker has halted production of one of the company’s most popular handguns until they can include the new “enhanced” trigger in all new P320 models. SIG wouldn’t provide a date for restarting production.

During yesterday’s visit to SIG HQ, the company recognized the issue with the -30 degree hard surface drop discharges brought to light in the Omaha Outdoors and TTAG videos. They drop-tested P320’s in the prescribed manner and reproduced the worrying results at their Exeter, NH manufacturing plant.

SIG then swapped the commercial P320 trigger for their new enhanced trigger, combining a lighter trigger shoe with a new disconnect. Performing the same -30 hard surface drop test with the upgraded pistols — “more than 200 times” — SIG’s engineers didn’t experience a single discharge.

SIG claims that recent feedback from government agencies evaluating the P320 inspired the enhanced trigger design. The changes were intended to improve trigger feel during the pull and reset. The result just happens to fix the drop safety issue, too. According to SIG, they intended to incorporate the changes in all P320 models — at a date the company didn’t specify."


http://www.thetruthaboutguns.c...e-details-on-monday/

quote:

Originally posted by Chris17404:

quote:

Originally posted by Pale Horse:
Just to point it out for anyone who watches that video, that trigger is clearly modified or aftermarket and does not have the trigger tab. It fires when dropped because of the modifications.

Yes, that was why I posted that video and for my comments. It's the aftermarket mods that make a Glock unsafe, yet other manufacturers are trying to beat Glock by making pistols that are on the very narrow edge of safe.

I figured that was the point you were trying to make. I just wanted to highlight that.

See!

I knew it.

Shoulda just kept the awesome P250!

{sorry but couldn't resist}

quote:

Originally posted by Pale Horse:

quote:

Originally posted by Chris17404:

quote:

Originally posted by GP229:
I'll bet that other manufacturers just can't wait for others to start drop testing their pistols on YouTube.

Yep.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXJt7o6fm7o

It's funny how over the course of a decade people went from "Omg the Glock trigger is so short its so dangerous" to now we have so many manufacturers trying to make the shortest and lightest trigger possible with a fully-cocked striker, not to mention all of the aftermarket triggers out there for all these striker pistols that reduce safety way more. And the industry thinks it's totally fine. Now the Glock trigger, with its relatively-long take-up and "wall" is one of "safest" triggers there is today. It would all be so silly if it wasn't so stupid.

Just to point it out for anyone who watches that video, that trigger is clearly modified or aftermarket and does not have the trigger tab. It fires when dropped because of the modifications. The whole video is showing why the Agency Arms modifications are dangerous.

You can see the trigger in shots from 0:37-0:39.

Yes, it is quite clear that this isn't a stock Glock, but this was my point. I said "manufacturer", not "pistol manufacturer", so I imagine that Agency is just thrilled about the video at this point.

And yes, I own two Glocks, and no P320's, nor have I ever owned a P320.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: GP229,

quote:

Originally posted by RX-79G:

quote:

Originally posted by ScopeX5:
Sig GMbH has been the primary designer of all of their guns.

I don't know if that is a good assumption. Sauer and Swiss Arms (formerly SAN, formerly SIG) do not make pistols anymore. And they never made striker pistols.

So I don't know what two rifle companies could do for their former US importer.

With Sig GMbH ScopeX5 probably meant SIG SAUER GmbH of Eckernförde, Schleswig-Holstein, Germany.

This is the joint venture of SIG of Switzerland and JP Sauer und Sohn of Isny im Allgäu, formerly Suhl, Germany.

Sig Sauer has been a pistol company from the start, designing the modern P-series starting from P220. You could argue that SIG of Neuhausen was more responsible for the design and that Sig Sauer was responsible for production, but by P226 the design was all Sig Sauer. They went on to design rifles distinct from Sauer's rifles only much later (SSG 2000 sometime in the late 80's).

AFAIK Sig Sauer GmbH has never designed a striker fired pistol up to production. They might have done some prototyping though. JP Sauer OTOH produced about 250,000 striker fired pocket pistols before WW2, upto Sauer M1933. M1938 was the first hammer fired one.

I went back and looked at this P250 animation. I see a little bit of similarity in the safety lock/lever of the P250 and the P320 system, even though they are different (hammer vs striker). I don't know how much of a drop would need to be sustained with a P250 in order to slip the lock away from the firing pin.

Precocked striker vs Firing pin/hammer and a heavier/longer trigger stroke. I don't see it discharging from a drop

quote:

Originally posted by Pale Horse:
The whole video is showing why the Agency Arms modifications are dangerous.

The Agency Arms minimalist mag well is very well made and very functional on Glock pistols.

I use OEM factory parts for the internals, only changing the connector to a (-) minus connector. The pistol functions as designed and as intended.

quote:

Originally posted by WARPIG602:

quote:

Originally posted by Chris17404:

quote:

Originally posted by rjbaal:
During a class another student dropped a gun and it landed right by my foot on the concrete floor of the indoor range. It was iirc a p229 or p226. No discharge. Would I be happy now if somebody dropped a P320 at my feet on concrete. No.

This made me think. Could the P320 become the new "AIWB" for shooting instructors? How often do pistols get dropped in a training class? Will instructors now start banning P320's that do not have "the fix" from their classes, similar to how some have banned AIWB, for liability reasons? What about shooting competitions?

Side note, I would never bother training with anyone who wouldn't allow you to train as you would normally. Whether it be because of equipment or manner of carry.

I would have no problem with a class that states, for example, that SERPAs are verboten or the plurality of instructors who ban shoulder rigs.