quote:

Originally posted by rjbaal:
During a class another student dropped a gun and it landed right by my foot on the concrete floor of the indoor range. It was iirc a p229 or p226. No discharge. Would I be happy now if somebody dropped a P320 at my feet on concrete. No.

This made me think. Could the P320 become the new "AIWB" for shooting instructors? How often do pistols get dropped in a training class? Will instructors now start banning P320's that do not have "the fix" from their classes, similar to how some have banned AIWB, for liability reasons? What about shooting competitions?

quote:

Originally posted by lmacrichter:
I love my FS P320 and have not had any problems with it although I have never dropped it either. I have not had time to read 34 pages of post so can someone tell me, is there a problem or not and if so is Sig working on a fix? This is the sweetest shooting gun I own and is now my go to weapon so it would be nice to know one way or the other. Thanks in advance for any help/answers you might have.

I will try to answer your question. In the last couple of weeks there has been a raft of videos demonstrating P320s that drop discharge primed empty cases when dropped at a specific angle. The angle apparently has to be muzzle up with the bore axis 30 degrees off the vertical. Some of these videos have shown pistols going bang on the first or second try when dropped from only 3 to 4 feet. When dropped in this manner, both the beaver tail of the grip module and the back of the slide impact the floor simultaneously.

When this happens, the inertia of the trigger itself causes the trigger to continue towards the floor, passing through the relatively light "take-up" stage which is enough to disengage the striker block safety. The impact is also sufficient to cause enough sear bounce to release the pre-tensioned striker and fire the pistol.

Tom Taylor, Executive Vice-President of Commercial Sales for SIG has gone on record saying he knows of three ADs that occurred in the law enforcement market in the last year, and a fourth that occurred in the civilian market, although the last was not "formally reported" to SIG. One of the LE related incidents was undoubtedly that of a Stamford CT police officer now suing SIG for 6-7 million dollars over an injury to his leg sustained when his holstered P320 discharged (allegedly) when dropped to the pavement this January. All of the four occurred in the last year. Taylor was quick to point out that this is out of about a half-million pistols sold.

In response to these videos SIG has done their own testing and confirmed that there is a potential for the P320 to fire when dropped at this specific angle. They are going to offer what they have called a "voluntary trigger upgrade" or "safety enhancement", not a recall. It will involve a reduced mass trigger shoe, a modified and lightened striker and sear, altered sear housing geometry, and a trigger disconnect safety that disengages the trigger bar if the slide is out of battery.

It has not yet been announced whether SIG will cover the cost of these modifications, or whether they will cover shipping. Apparently per SIG, current P320 production has been shut down and will be turned over to modifying P320s. More details about the "voluntary upgrade" are supposed to be forthcoming from SIG on Monday August 14th.

So is there a problem? Well, IMO it has been pretty convincingly demonstrated that a SIG P320 has a fair chance of discharging when dropped at this specific angle. What the risk of that happening I think everyone needs to judge for themselves.

Why would the M17 be reviewed? It passed all of the tests and met the requirements. It also supposedly does not exhibit this issue.

quote:

Originally posted by RX-79G:
And second, because there doesn't appear to have been drop testing, or the drop testing that would uncover this failure.

And you know this how? Do you have a copy of the final test report? According to Sig the M17 did not exhibit this failure. It also passed all other types of drop testing standards. "No drop testing" by the military is is pure speculation.

I don't care how good on an engineer someone is, or how thorough you test something, there is ALWAYS something that can show up later.

Sig has an issue with the 320, that is for sure. But there is also plenty of speculation and personal opinion being passed off as fact in this thread.

I still remember the safety recall for S&W M&P Shields back in 2013 for defective trigger safety mechanisms. S&W took care of it and the Shield turned out to be a major success.
http://www.gunsandammo.com/blo...r-mp-shield-pistols/

Im sure Sig will get this all cleared up eventually, but this definitely could have been handeled better. I do believe Sig has committed several errors in the past by shipping out products that were not put through thorough R&D or quality control. This company is still very much capable of creating innovative and dependable firearms, but they really need to refocus on some of the basics here.

Like I said, speculation. You stated "there doesn't appear to be drop testing". I don't have the test report either, but I wouldn't make a statement like that.

Doesn't the military version have a manual safety? Wouldn't this mitigate drop risk?

quote:

Originally posted by RX-79G:
SIG is being sued right now by the CT officer, Steyr and the NJSP, and they now have 500,000 pistols to remachine and their MHS contract is likely to be reviewed. Does that sound like a good financial position?

What is SIG USA's gun design experience? Even the first P229 slides initially cracked. How would you characterize their success in designing and fielding firearms? (GSR, 556, 224, 938, etc.)

So when Juniper Networks was just started, do you think they would know how to design the massive backbone BGP routers versus an established Cisco? They did and their products became wildly successful. How? Because they were started by and hired a lot of very experienced top routing and network engineers and product teams.

I would imagine similar processes in other industries. Sig wouldn't just be plucking me out of the street to design guns now, would it?

As for financial, Sig just won the massive MHS contract and their products are doing quite well in LE and commercial markets. Yeah I will bet with you whether or not Sig would collapse with this safety issue.

You didn't say "no drop testing at 30 degrees". You said no drop testing. Speculation designed to sound like fact.

You seen knowledgeable, but you also seem to be making statements with no facts.

Have a nice day.

quote:

Originally posted by Chris17404:
One of the saddest things about all of this is the fact that anyone who blindly dismissed this issue as bullshit and defended Sig, for whatever reason, without taking a little time and due diligence to examine the facts have lost their credibility and integrity, just as Sig has. Their arrogance has prevented them from recognizing their ignorance.

^^^^^^ This^^^^^^

quote:

Originally posted by medic451:
I still remember the safety RECALL for S&W M&P Shields back in 2013 for defective trigger safety mechanisms. S&W took care of it and the Shield turned out to be a major success.
http://www.gunsandammo.com/blo...r-mp-shield-pistols/

Im sure Sig will get this all cleared up eventually, but this definitely could have been handeled better. I do believe Sig has committed several errors in the past by shipping out products that were not put through thorough R&D or quality control. This company is still very much capable of creating innovative and dependable firearms, but they really need to refocus on some of the basics here.

Too bad Sig didn't think it best to do the same.

quote:

Originally posted by Chris17404:

quote:

Originally posted by rjbaal:
During a class another student dropped a gun and it landed right by my foot on the concrete floor of the indoor range. It was iirc a p229 or p226. No discharge. Would I be happy now if somebody dropped a P320 at my feet on concrete. No.

This made me think. Could the P320 become the new "AIWB" for shooting instructors? How often do pistols get dropped in a training class? Will instructors now start banning P320's that do not have "the fix" from their classes, similar to how some have banned AIWB, for liability reasons? What about shooting competitions?

Not all instructors.

I'm attending LEOSA recertification next week and contacted the certifying authority about this issue. There response was, you will not be prohibited from qualifying with your P320, just don't drop it.

quote:

Originally posted by Fredward:
Doesn't the military version have a manual safety? Wouldn't this mitigate drop risk?

People keep saying this. It doesn't work that way though. You don't get to time out and ensure the safety is engaged before the gun hits the deck.

quote:

Originally posted by RX-79G:

quote:

Originally posted by mbinky:
You didn't say "no drop testing at 30 degrees". You said no drop testing. Speculation designed to sound like fact.

You seen knowledgeable, but you also seem to be making statements with no facts.

Have a nice day.

quote:

And second, because there doesn't appear to have been drop testing, or the drop testing that would uncover this failure.

How does "there doesn't appear" sound like a statement of fact? I didn't say that it was a fact, so why are you putting words in my mouth?


I have pointed out that there are a number of possible reasons DOD would likely "review" the contract in light of both the drop safety data coming in now AND the financial repercussions there of. REVIEW, not cancel.

The DOD will review contracts any time there is a scandal, even when the scandal doesn't bear as directly on the product as this one does. Again, does that seem unreasonable to you?

For your own well being, why don't you take a break from this thread?

quote:

Originally posted by WARPIG602:
Not entirely untrue. How long has Sig USA been designing handguns? And of thos desigsn, since we're on the topic, were released with no issues?

I am more of a Glock fan but conversely, how long has Glock been at designing Glocks before releasing their problematic Gen 4?

Designs by humans are fallible. How long have Apple and Google and Samsung been at their shits, yet each new release brings a whole boat load of issues.

That said, totally agreed that Sig's response has been less than satisfactory. They should be more like Samsung or Toyota or Sony - have their CEO come in front of the press, bow down steeply and apologize for the grave mistake.

A number of posts have me scratching my head.

For example: Voluntary Upgrade. This could mean any of several things.

Why not wait until SIG actually announces what it is going to do, instead of having all the speculation?

quote:

Originally posted by Chris17404:

quote:

Originally posted by rjbaal:
During a class another student dropped a gun and it landed right by my foot on the concrete floor of the indoor range. It was iirc a p229 or p226. No discharge. Would I be happy now if somebody dropped a P320 at my feet on concrete. No.

This made me think. Could the P320 become the new "AIWB" for shooting instructors? How often do pistols get dropped in a training class? Will instructors now start banning P320's that do not have "the fix" from their classes, similar to how some have banned AIWB, for liability reasons? What about shooting competitions?

Side note, I would never bother training with anyone who wouldn't allow you to train as you would normally. Whether it be because of equipment or manner of carry.

quote:

Originally posted by 10-7 leo:
A number of posts have me scratching my head.

For example: Voluntary Upgrade. This could mean any of several things.

Why not wait until SIG actually announces what it is going to do, instead of having all the speculation?

.
Silly boy. Because that would be using common sense.

This reminds me of sportscasters. We hear their prognostication for two weeks on who's going to win the Super Bowl. My own method is foolproof. I actually watch the game and see who wins. So far I've never been wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by RX-79G:

Well, don't bump it off the 4' high shelf at the range and onto the concrete. If your gun kills someone at this point, it is your liability since you know about the problem.

Incorrect.

If you'd said "duty" instead of "lisbility," one might be forgiven for believing you have some understanding of the legal process, but you do not. It's clear that you are neither attorney nor P320 owner, though you like to argue as though you're both. You've blathered on about your aircraft accident investigation experience, which is wuite irrelevant, and I'll match it with several decades of very broad aviation experience in the shop, hangar floor, office, field, and yes, investigations...which is equally irrelevant.

One does not know about this problem. On has unsubstantiated indications that there may be a problem. Th nature of the problem, if it exists, and the cause, are as yet unsubstantiated and undocumented beyond random youtube videos.

Liability is a red herring. Duty may be the term you're looking for and don't understand. If a problem exists, one has a duty to learn more, and to act within the scope of valid information and documentation. The extent of that duty is contextual and subject to interpretation.

The manufacturer has included notification that the weapon may discharge if dropped, and yet nearly half a million copies of the weapon have been in active use for several years. One has a duty to act within the scope of the manufacturers data.

Your blatherings and endless arguements here and on numerous other forums do not establish a duty on the part of the end user, and neither do your assertions about your righteous warnings to the firearm world. We get it. Your he prophet of pistols, seeing what none other does, and yet your ceaseless argumentative ramblings establish no duty. That rests with the end user.

Now it may be that Sigs pronouncement of halting production, and public statements, establishes some measure of bona fide information that implies duty (liability to you), or it may not. When Sig states that the P320 is no to be discharged, loaded, or carried until modified, that will establish a fairly clear standard encumbent on the end user to abide.

Fo now, I don't see a damn thing that prevents me or anyone else from loading, shooting, carrying, storing, owning, buying, or otherwise possessing, using, or employing a P320.

The responsibility for the firearm rests with the user, and should you drop it and allow it to discharge, with or without the rabid mania wrought on by a youtube video, you still bear the cost of violating your duty to the public. In other words, you drop that weapon, it's on you either way. You are responsible for any collateral damage from your ownership or use when outside the scope of your duty in owning, storing, carrying, employing, or discharging that weapon.

I's evident that you don't really grasp this concept.

I'll bet that other manufacturers just can't wait for others to start drop testing their pistols on YouTube.