SIG failing sure is like a wet dream for some folks on here.

Seriously I don't understand the hysteria and conspiracy theorizing. It seems pretty simple to me:

SIG thouroughly tested their design according to the industry standards and found no issues. I presume others did as well.

DPD apparently had a knee-jerk reaction to legalese in the manual.

Based on the information they had, SIG responded with reassurances.

In response to the hullabaloo, people started doing their own drop tests and someone apparently found a sweet spot that hadn't previously been discovered. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's not like people are getting P320s to fire and all kinds of angles, right? It's this one particular angle.

I'm sure SIG is working quickly to determine the exact issue and fix.

Some people are acting like SIG is trying to cover up the Watergate tapes (or hide OJ's gloves for some of us younger folks, or...I don't know what the millenials' scandal would be). SIG made a statement based on the best information available at the time, then the available information changed. I'm sure their statement will change. Is it good for SIGs business? No, but it's not the coming of the apocalypse. Judgement day is not at hand.

If you own a P320 and are worried that the fabric of the universe is ripping, simply unload the pistol and place it in the safe. Then wait for word from SIG about what is next. I'd recommend avoiding smearing butter all of your hands prior to doing so. You may also want to take all the cushions off the couch to create a padded workspace. You can also build them into a fort to protect you from the doomsday that is happening.

quote:

Originally posted by comet24:

quote:

Originally posted by ScopeX5:
So then is it fair to say that GGI and Apex are selling unsafe triggers as of right this moment? If indeed a trigger tab is needed, what does this mean for our aftermarket triggers?

So this is your first post here. Good job you've managed to insult two respected custom shops.

While there may be a problem with the gun not sure I would make the jump from the manufactory to these shops.

Foolish

I read no insult in ScopeX5's post.
Stating the fact that certain aftermarket parts seem to be involved in the drop fire problem is very reasonable.

quote:

Originally posted by BuddyChryst:
Seriously I don't understand the hysteria and conspiracy theorizing. It seems pretty simple to me:

SIG thouroughly tested their design according to the industry standards and found no issues. I presume others did as well.

DPD apparently had a knee-jerk reaction to legalese in the manual.

Based on the information they had, SIG responded with reassurances.

In response to the hullabaloo, people started doing their own drop tests and someone apparently found a sweet spot that hadn't previously been discovered. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's not like people are getting P320s to fire and all kinds of angles, right? It's this one particular angle.

I'm sure SIG is working quickly to determine the exact issue and fix.

Some people are acting like SIG is trying to cover up the Watergate tapes (or hide OJ's gloves for some of us younger folks, or...I don't know what the millenials' scandal would be). SIG made a statement based on the best information available at the time, then the available information changed. I'm sure their statement will change. Is it good for SIGs business? No, but it's not the coming of the apocalypse. Judgement day is not at hand.

If you own a P320 and are worried that the fabric of the universe is ripping, simply unload the pistol and place it in the safe. Then wait for word from SIG about what is next. I'd recommend avoiding smearing butter all of your hands prior to doing so. You may also want to take all the cushions off the couch to create a padded workspace. You can also build them into a fort to protect you from the doomsday that is happening.

I agree with what you say, with the exception that I would handle the company's response to the customer differently. There is no doubt with the access people have to networking that most every P320 owner knows about some aspects of these issues. The statement Sig released after the Dallas PD thing is contrary to what has now been discovered, the least Sig could do is have a response to the concerns of the owners. Something as simple as "Sig has seen the results from Omaha Outdoors and others testing and are working diligently to determine if an issue exists............."

Not that hard.

quote:

Originally posted by RX-79G:
There is a very real danger that a massive recall, the Steyr lawsuit and any sort of class action from agencies, dealers or individuals that feel mislead by SIG's "no tab needed" marketing since January 15 could be financially crippling to SIG, leaving no solution for current owners. It really just depends how deep SIG's pockets are from US civilian and agency sales.

I am under no illusion that this isn't a problem. To me, it is unfathomable that TTAG and Omaha would stick their necks out to be chopped off by fabricating drop fire with the 320, however your above statement is really stretching it quite a bit.

Sig will find a solution to this and in a few months time, all will be back to normal. Life and Sig will go on.

quote:

Originally posted by BuddyChryst:


Some people are acting like SIG is trying to cover up the Watergate tapes (or hide OJ's gloves for some of us younger folks, or...I don't know what the millenials' scandal would be).

How about using BleachBit on 30,000 emails.

Seriously though, I am in a wait and see mode. I am a recent convert to Sig but I kind of went all in. I bought the MPX, which then came out with a Gen 2, I bought the MCX, which then had a recall, then I bought the P320 and sent all 3 of them to Bruce Gray for action jobs, I bought a P229 Legion and watched the finish get scratched up after putting it into a Legion holster for the first time, I bought a P938 and through threads on this issue I learned about an MHS issue with that model. So far, I have not heard anything bad about the 1911 Nightmare I bought. With all of that I will say this, I expect there to be issues with any new systems. When the company handles them quickly and with the utmost convenience and consideration for their customers, I am happy. While I am in wait and see mode on this latest potential issue, I admit to being a bit concerned that Sig may have been aware of the potential for this issue and has not handled it in a manner that I would consider to be one of integrity. IF it comes out that they did know and tried to cover it up, then I will feel like quite the chump for giving them so much of my money.

As for Bruce Gray and his comments here regarding the DPD issue, I see no evidence at all that he was misleading anyone. I believe the man when he says that in all of his testing he has never seen an AD. I cannot believe he would come out in a public forum to defend the P320, unless he sincerely believed what he said was 100% accurate and true. I respect his work and I respect the amount of information he provides to many threads here on this forum, and others. That being said, there is a chance that his business may be impacted by this issue, and I would certainly understand silence from him at this point. I would not read anything into it beyond that. Nothing nefarious, just good sense to not say anything more that could come back against him or his business, liability-wise.

I want to see Sig handle this (potential) issue quickly, and with integrity. Until all the facts are in, I will be calm and carry on.

There it is: http://www.thetruthaboutguns.c...pgrade-p320-pistols/



Surprised it's a voluntary recall not mandatory. Though that just may be my understanding of mandatory vs voluntary.

quote:

Originally posted by BuddyChryst:
Seriously I don't understand the hysteria and conspiracy theorizing. It seems pretty simple to me:

SIG thouroughly tested their design according to the industry standards and found no issues. I presume others did as well.

DPD apparently had a knee-jerk reaction to legalese in the manual.

Based on the information they had, SIG responded with reassurances.

In response to the hullabaloo, people started doing their own drop tests and someone apparently found a sweet spot that hadn't previously been discovered. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's not like people are getting P320s to fire and all kinds of angles, right? It's this one particular angle.

I'm sure SIG is working quickly to determine the exact issue and fix.

Some people are acting like SIG is trying to cover up the Watergate tapes (or hide OJ's gloves for some of us younger folks, or...I don't know what the millenials' scandal would be). SIG made a statement based on the best information available at the time, then the available information changed. I'm sure their statement will change. Is it good for SIGs business? No, but it's not the coming of the apocalypse. Judgement day is not at hand.

If you own a P320 and are worried that the fabric of the universe is ripping, simply unload the pistol and place it in the safe. Then wait for word from SIG about what is next. I'd recommend avoiding smearing butter all of your hands prior to doing so. You may also want to take all the cushions off the couch to create a padded workspace. You can also build them into a fort to protect you from the doomsday that is happening.

I agree with almost everything you say. The one thing that bothers me is the way Cohen parsed the language in his statement that included:

"There have been zero (0) reported drop-related P320 incidents in the U.S. commercial market, with hundreds of thousands of guns delivered to date."

That statement was dated August 4, 2017. On the very same date, we find that a Stamford CT police officer filed a complaint in civil court seeking damages for an incident that occurred back in January when he alleges a holstered P320 fired when dropped shooting him in the leg.

While I agree the contents of a complaint filed in civil court can hardly be considered proof of anything, I would have to consider such an action to at least constitute "a report of a drop-related P320 incident" of which Cohen said there were zero "in the US commercial market".

It seems to me very likely that SIG Sauer knew something of this incident prior to the complaint being filed on the same day as Cohen's statement. If Cohen knew of it and therefore added the "commercial market" qualifier in his statement, it at least smacks of a half-truth to me.

quote:

Originally posted by BuddyChryst:
There it is: http://www.thetruthaboutguns.c...pgrade-p320-pistols/

Surprised it's a voluntary recall not mandatory. Though that just may be my understanding of mandatory vs voluntary.

Pretty classy how they spend an entire paragraph basically attacking Glock before getting around to the part where their guns fire when dropped.

"Uh, uh, yeah but other guns can be dangerous too if you ignore the basic rules of firearm safety so it is okay that ours fires when dropped."

SIG has taken a play right out of the Glock playbook. It's not a recall, it's a voluntary upgrade. :P

It would also appear that the statement that the video was faked was wrong. SIG sees that there is a problem and they have a fix for it...

quote:

Originally posted by Pale Horse:

quote:

Originally posted by BuddyChryst:
There it is: http://www.thetruthaboutguns.c...pgrade-p320-pistols/

Surprised it's a voluntary recall not mandatory. Though that just may be my understanding of mandatory vs voluntary.

Pretty classy how they spend an entire paragraph basically attacking Glock before getting around to the part where their guns fire when dropped.

"Uh, uh, yeah but other guns can be dangerous too if you ignore the basic rules of firearm safety so it is okay that ours fires when dropped."

Which had no bearing on the issue at hand anyway. Pretty weak.

This is kind of apples to oranges, but look at how the Takata air bags fiassco blew up. If there is a design flaw with the P-320C drop safety system, and to me there apparently is, it got by all the companies DE's, ME's and any SME's that were involved with it. IMHO,one ND related to the drop safety system is one to many times to minimize, because it could end up taking someones life. I truly hope Sig finds a solution and wish them well, on an otherwise fine pistol.

quote:

Originally posted by BuddyChryst:
Seriously I don't understand the hysteria and conspiracy theorizing. It seems pretty simple to me:

SIG thouroughly tested their design according to the industry standards and found no issues. I presume others did as well.

DPD apparently had a knee-jerk reaction to legalese in the manual.

Based on the information they had, SIG responded with reassurances.

In response to the hullabaloo, people started doing their own drop tests and someone apparently found a sweet spot that hadn't previously been discovered. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's not like people are getting P320s to fire and all kinds of angles, right? It's this one particular angle.

I'm sure SIG is working quickly to determine the exact issue and fix.

Some people are acting like SIG is trying to cover up the Watergate tapes (or hide OJ's gloves for some of us younger folks, or...I don't know what the millenials' scandal would be).

Too easy: "Russian Interference"

Spot on, BuddyChryst.

The histrionics are entertaining, I'll give 'em that.

quote:

Originally posted by RX-79G:

quote:

Originally posted by P6shooter:
SIG has taken a play right out of the Glock playbook. It's not a recall, it's a voluntary upgrade. :P

It would also appear that the statement that the video was faked was wrong. SIG sees that there is a problem and they have a fix for it...

Glock's "voluntary recall" came after a single AD.


If someone gets shot by a non-"upgraded" P320, will SIG be responsible for the accident?

Glock has had several "voluntary upgrades". Their form of "Perfection" has had quite a few problems over the years. They were really only "voluntary" if you wanted a gun that worked properly. They refused to issue recalls due to the bad press it would garner. Much like the Democrats...deny, deny, deny.

quote:

Originally posted by P6shooter:

quote:

Originally posted by RX-79G:

quote:

Originally posted by P6shooter:
SIG has taken a play right out of the Glock playbook. It's not a recall, it's a voluntary upgrade. :P

It would also appear that the statement that the video was faked was wrong. SIG sees that there is a problem and they have a fix for it...

Glock's "voluntary recall" came after a single AD.


If someone gets shot by a non-"upgraded" P320, will SIG be responsible for the accident?

Glock has had several "voluntary upgrades". Their form of "Perfection" has had quite a few problems over the years. They were really only "voluntary" if you wanted a gun that worked properly. They refused to issue recalls due to the bad press it would garner. Much like the Democrats And Sig ...deny, deny, deny.

FIFY

Why is everyone, including Sig, attacking Glock? Sig has an issue. The company and fans alike should simply acknowledge that and move on. Any problems with Glock don't make it okay that Sigs fire when dropped. Attacking other companies is weak sauce.

I am kinda shocked that it took 19 pages for someone to make a comparison to Democrats. It was inevitable I guess but it was nice to have not seen it so far. But congrats on adding politics to yet another non-political thread. Everyone around here loves that.

Time to bring up Hitler somehow now...

If I ever accidentally drop a P320, I'll be sure to consult the ANSI/SAAMI standards first.

quote:

Originally posted by BuddyChryst:
There it is: http://www.thetruthaboutguns.c...pgrade-p320-pistols/



Surprised it's a voluntary recall not mandatory. Though that just may be my understanding of mandatory vs voluntary.

quote:

Originally posted by BuddyChryst:
There it is: http://www.thetruthaboutguns.c...pgrade-p320-pistols/



Surprised it's a voluntary recall not mandatory. Though that just may be my understanding of mandatory vs voluntary.

Look, those damn GLOCKER infiltrated SIG's IT system and put this FAKE notice out.



It's a LIE, it's a LIE.

<sarcasm>

Let me guess that the M17s are getting another real throughout 'shake out' at SIG USA, and maybe some 'upgrade' parts find their way into the regular production M17s.

Too funny, all around. Conspiracy, indeed.

I'm sure SIG has spent the last week crafting that letter and still needs a week to get their recall, I mean upgrade, process going.

quote:

Originally posted by lordhamster:
If I ever accidentally drop a P320, I'll be sure to consult the ANSI/SAAMI standards first.

Lol. Also when you are riding in the back of the Ambulance for that GSW just thank your lucky stars that you won't have to pull the trigger to disassemble it next time you clean it.

quote:

Originally posted by lordhamster:
If I ever accidentally drop a P320, I'll be sure to consult the ANSI/SAAMI standards first.

*sigh* This is what I meant by "histrionics."

Look: SAAMI and ANSI develop their standards based as well as they can on real-life reproducible and repeatable tests and measurements. Just like NHTSA, NTSB, etc. Saying what you said would be like saying "If I ever get in an auto accident I'll be sure to consult NHTSA standards, first."

C'mon, people, get a freakin' grip.

quote:

Originally posted by RX-79G:

quote:

Originally posted by P6shooter:
Glock has had several "voluntary upgrades". Their form of "Perfection" has had quite a few problems over the years. They were really only "voluntary" if you wanted a gun that worked properly. They refused to issue recalls due to the bad press it would garner. Much like the Democrats...deny, deny, deny.

Like I said, the big "voluntary upgrade" was one shot. No one ever duplicated it that I know of.

The 2005 Glock G36 problem was not labeled "voluntary".

In both cases shipping was paid.

I'm not much of a Glock fan, but they handled both as recalls without entering the formal legal recall process. We'll see what SIG does on the 14th.

The frame replacement on my G33 was termed an "upgrade." Everyone else in the free world knew that replacing the frames due to broken rails was not an upgrade, but a recall.

Because no license is required to possess or use the Glock, it cant be a mandatory recall. It's still a recall, regardless of whether they prefer to couch it as an "upgrade."