quote:

Originally posted by jezsuiz:
Could be wrong but I haven't seen anyone test this on the "x" series. Wonder if that has same issue with the straight trigger?

As an aside I always expect a dropped gun to go bang, just old school I guess. Not that I am trying to excuse sig to or anything but I feel a lot of these videos are like YouTube torture tests. While factually true it's a rare occasion any of this will bear fruit.

Omaha Outdoors did test an X5, which passed their testing. They then moved the X5 trigger to a non X 320 and it I believe had one failure but I don't know how many times they tried, however it did reduce the problem.


In the article from TTAG, Sig claims to have offered a lighter (by weight) trigger simply in an effort to reduce total weight. They claimed to have made the trigger lighter as a byproduct, but that seems like total BS to me.

quote:

Originally posted by smithnsig:
Everybody is wondering where Bruce is. I bet he is working furiously for a fix for It. I bet he already has an idea of what he is going to design. Probably in testing now.

I doubt it, Bruce said he hes bounced the P320 off everything imaginable and that the P320 is perfectly safe. Besides that, Sig doesn't need to discover a fix, they already have one. They simply couldnt say it before as it would cause people to panic thinking their 320 was unsafe. I really doubt the the upgrades in the M17 were purely by chance.

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
Para, thank you for your continued tolerance and consistent moderation of your forum.

Stick a sock in it.

quote:

Originally posted by WARPIG602:

quote:

Originally posted by smithnsig:
Everybody is wondering where Bruce is. I bet he is working furiously for a fix for It. I bet he already has an idea of what he is going to design. Probably in testing now.

I doubt it, Bruce said he hes bounced the P320 off everything imaginable and that the P320 is perfectly safe. Besides that, Sig doesn't need to discover a fix, they already have one. They simply couldnt say it before as it would cause people to panic thinking their 320 was unsafe. I really doubt the the upgrades in the M17 were purely by chance.

This. To a T.

quote:

Originally posted by Voshterkoff:
Sig had the time to engineer a fix while lying to the civilian market, that much is known.

Where did they lie? Please be specific.

Did the P320 PASS all the industry standard drop tests (that all other pistols are subjected to), or did it not? If it did, where is the lie?

quote:

Originally posted by Bigboreshooter:

quote:

Originally posted by Voshterkoff:
Sig had the time to engineer a fix while lying to the civilian market, that much is known.

Where did they lie? Please be specific.

Did the P320 PASS all the industry standard drop tests (that all other pistols are subjected to), or did it not? If it did, where is the lie?

They lied when they released a presser after the Dallas PD thing went down, where Sig said that they had 0 reported drop fires, and the pistol was drop safe. Then yesterday they held a press conference in which they clain that out of 500,000 pistols sold, 3 reported drop fires were reported by LE, and one known civilian case also.

MHS M17 ALREADY Fixed P320 Drop Failure Issue; “Voluntary Upgrade” Pistols Will Receive MHS Triggers

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/...eceive-mhs-triggers/

quote:

Originally posted by Black92LX:

quote:

My car is actually under a recall notice for the Tanaka Airbag failure where an over pressured airbag component can turn the airbag into a mini-grenade. I have been notified of the recall and I will DAMN WELL have it fixed as soon as possible. I don't just say... what the hell, no car is 100% safe.

So you have stopped driving the vehicle????
Never did I say not to get it fixed if a fix is found.
My point is no gun is ever going to be 100% risk free from an acidental discharge it is just not going to happen. The gun is not defective per se. It was tested to industry standards and passed. The gun can possibly fire outside of it's intended use. Scenerios can be found with enough time and effort more many guns.
As for not agreeing with my vehicle scenarios that is fine. It fits. There is an industry standard of tests that are done but in repeatable scenarios outside of those standards people still die from accidents in them that does not make them defective.

Since we have gone into free form mode, please allow me to digress and spout some of my own philosophy, which may or may not be shared by others. The product and circumstances are obviously different than P320's - I'm just addressing how the consumer chooses to respond.

I too have a vehicle "recalled" for the Tanaka passenger side airbag issue. have received several notifications on my 2002 (original) BMW 3 series. Lately received some crap from class action lawsuit tort lawyers. Dum dum Nipper has not responded to any of the preceding. Why?

1) Originally, due to lack of hard data overall on the umpteen zillion Tanaka airbags installed in U.S. vehicles, some exploding bags came to light. Instantly tort lawyers appear.

2) Tanaka, based on the limited data they had or were acquiring, detected a pattern. The instances were in humid, hot climates like the South.

3) The government (NTSB under Obama) and tort lawyers then ramped up. Eventually, there was a recall of ALL Takata airbags. Guaranteed that the Tanaka folks that made the decision were lawyers, not engineers. Even if the issue can occur in all bags anywhere, the actual risk is tiny.

4) I'm not replacing mine. Not going to take the chance of a mechanic removing the bag on a 15 year old car and installing a new one. Are the new bags 100% safe - who knows? Did the mechanic screw up something else in the process - who knows? Was the old bag actually unsafe - who knows?

Whether it's an air bag or my P320, I evaluate and make my own decisions. I don't tell anybody else what their decision should be. I don't expect anybody else to tell me what my decision should be.

Re the P320, I'm waiting until the dust settles.

quote:

Originally posted by Chris17404:
MHS M17 ALREADY Fixed P320 Drop Failure Issue; “Voluntary Upgrade” Pistols Will Receive MHS Triggers

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/...eceive-mhs-triggers/

Sig also mentioned in the "Voluntary Upgrade" letter pg30 of this thread, that the P320 met US Safety standards. Now I'm not familiar with those standard, but if I'm an internal auditor or compliance officer for Sig, I'd be requesting the controls and controls test results to show compliance with those referenced standards.

My guess here is the letter due Monday Aug 14th from Sig will make this a mandatory upgrade/recall due to safety and litigation concerns.

quote:

Originally posted by Nipper:
I don't tell anybody else what their decision should be. I don't expect anybody else to tell me what my decision should be.

Re the P320, I'm waiting until the dust settles.

It goes without saying that everyone is entitled to do as they please.... but now you've got me curious. You say you will "wait until the dust settles." That is a little bit vague.

I infer from that that you will not panic and go selling the P320... but, will you
a) Stop using the P320 and maybe relegate to safe duty till the dust settles?
b) Ignore the current evidence and keep using the P320 as if nothing ever happened till the dust settles?


They are two very different reactions. For me personally I'd probably do A and choose to not use the P320 for a while. Moot point for me through as I sold my P320 about a year ago when I switched to all Hammer fired DA/SA pistols

PS. One more video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsljmVh-GFQ

quote:

Originally posted by Nipper:
Re the P320, I'm waiting until the dust settles.

This ^^^^^ is precisely what I'm doing.

I have long suspected there is no such thing as a 100% drop-safe handgun. (Or rifle, for that matter.) The only difference between the P320 and my other firearms is, while I only suspect any of the others may discharge if they hit the deck "just so," I now know the P320 has a distinctly non-0 probability of doing so if dropped from at least four feet up, onto a "firm" surface upon which it lands in just a certain way.

Essentially: I'll continue doing my best not to drop any of them and wait to see the results of Sig's voluntary upgrade program.

I'm certain as the day is long that, before my life is over (hopefully not at my own careless hands), something over which to truly become upset will happen along. I'll save my angst and anger and emotionalism and all that for that, whatever it may be.

If someone panics on a P320 .40 S&W subcompact Nitron with PELT trigger, kindly let me know.

Price commensurate with the degree of panic.

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:
The only difference between the P320 and my other firearms is, while I only suspect any of the others may discharge if they hit the deck "just so," I now know the P320 has a distinctly non-0 probability of doing so if dropped from at least four feet up, onto a "firm" surface upon which it lands in just a certain way.

Correction: The P320 has (based on the video evidence) a >75% chance of discharging when dropped form a height of ~4ft (possibly less) in [b]just a certain way[b] which btw has already caused one law enforcement officer to be shot.

Another video demonstration: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsljmVh-GFQ

Parsing your words to say "non-0 probability" while true, is deeply disingenuous. Saying that the chance of the P320 can fire in this way > .0000000000000001% of the time is also TRUE, but SEVERELY misleading. That kind of wordsmithing might qualify you to be Ron Cohen's next lawyer.

Decaf for the rest of the day, lordhamster.

Ease off the gas a bit, please.

quote:

Parsing your words to say "non-0 probability" while true, is deeply disingenuous. Saying that the chance of the P320 can fire in this way > .0000000000000001% of the time is also TRUE, but SEVERELY misleading. That kind of wordsmithing might qualify you to be Ron Cohen's next lawyer.

The only one parsing his words is you.

He said that the probability of the pistol going off when dropped is not zero. That's it.

Calling his words "deeply disingenuous", just because it doesn't fit your definition of events, is a real stretch.

quote:

Originally posted by lordhamster:
Correction: The P320 has (based on the video evidence) a >75% chance of discharging when dropped form a height of ~4ft (possibly less) in [b]just a certain way[b] which btw has already caused one law enforcement officer to be shot.

Invalid sample size.

quote:

Originally posted by lordhamster:
Parsing your words to say "non-0 probability" while true, is deeply disingenuous.

I'll thank you very kindly not to accuse me of lying or attempting to purposely mislead when what I'm in fact doing is stating fact based on sound statistical principles.

(And, since I know a caution from the boss when I see one , I'll leave it at that...)

quote:

Originally posted by RX-79G:
......You don't file court documents to have an "out of court" settlement. You file court documents when you no longer want to settle out of court and want to pursue a lawsuit.

Hate to be a nit picker, but incorrect. You may want to familiarize yourself with civil court procedures. Only 5-10% of civil cases actually go to trial. Out of court settlements can take place ANYWHERE in the process, and usually do. Even DURING the actual trial. It's a kabuki dance with the plaintiff's attorneys and is SOP.

Generally, if the defendant/insurance company doesn't initially cave to the demands, you file court documents as a weapon to be used for further negotiations. Generally, the plaintiff's attorney prefers NOT to go to trial in order to collect his 30-40% contingency. Increases risk and expenses. If the plaintiff loses, the slimeball tort lawyer gets nothing and eats his costs to date. It can take years for a simple bench trial to take place after the initial filings.

Some educational material:

(1) Excerpt:
"Out of court settlement: In civil proceedings, parties to proceedings may, without reference to the Court, at any time before final judgment, offer to settle or compromise all or any of the matters in issue between them."

http://www.duhaime.org/LegalDi...CourtSettlement.aspx

(2) Excerpt:
"Out of Court Settlements During a Trial.
Out of court settlements can happen at any time from the date of the accident to the verdict or the bench trial. Generally judges are happy when this happens because it means less work for them, because one more case goes off their docket."

https://pricebenowitz.com/mary...aryland-injury-cases

I'm not a lawyer...but I did stay in a Holiday Inn last night. Perhaps a real lawyer (rjbaal posted August 08, 2017 10:34 AM) who posted here previously can elaborate and/or correct any errors. BTW rjbaal, as a SF member, the slimeball designation does not apply to you.

My apologies to the SF members for posting boring, factual information again...

quote:

Originally posted by jehzsa:
If someone panics on a P320 .40 S&W subcompact Nitron with PELT trigger, kindly let me know.

Price commensurate with the degree of panic.

There's one guy out there that thinks the PELT trigger makes it worse...

https://youtu.be/Nzp_Cp2Rvhc

https://youtu.be/7kqlH2kdxsI

"If you have a Grayguns PELT trigger shoe, remove it immediately. It greatly increases the risk of drop fire. I found the striker released much more often with the PELT installed. I did many drops tonight and with the PELT I could get the striker to drop 50-80% of the time. With the stock internals that dropped to about 10-20% of the time. I have one P320 Compact that I can not get the striker to drop on at all. I do not know the reason for this other than that the trigger has better leverage with the PELT installed. The trigger shoes are exactly the same weight (16g). The stock trigger is 7.5lbs and the PELT with stock TRS reduces it to 4.75lbs."

His words, not mine... Are his videos faked? I dunno.

-Ton

This sounds like a great time to go on a P320 buying spree. Starting now.

quote:

Originally posted by Chris17404:
MHS M17 ALREADY Fixed P320 Drop Failure Issue; “Voluntary Upgrade” Pistols Will Receive MHS Triggers

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/...eceive-mhs-triggers/

Hopefully it doesnt require installation of the safety, too.