Alan Dershowitz:

quote:

Originally posted by nhtagmember:
Destroy Gaza - every square inch. Then rebuild it as an ocean front beach resort with lots of free parking.

Why do you guys keep saying stuff like this? Why?

You know it's not going to happen. Tell me you don't.

Millions of people live in Gaza. Where are they going to go? Oh, right, I forgot. "Kill 'em all." That is to say- have someone else kill them for you.

And that is not going to happen, either, and you know it.

So, millions of Palestinian refugees dispersed into the world. Where will they go? A substantial number- say 1 to 1.5 million- would come here, to the United States.

And then, that Jack Reacher quote will be turned back upon you.

Is there ever going to be a peaceful resolution to the issue? This battle will rage for a while, Gaza won’t be leveled and the fighting will stop, but then what? Our current administration is feckless and laughable, will we be able to reach an accord that is tolerable to both? The longer the fighting goes, what will be the world wide impact, 1.5 million more refugees here, who is going to pay for that.

quote:

“The rule and not the exception is this- if Hamas and Hezbollah would lay down their arms, the fighting would cease immediately. If the Jewish people lay down their arms we will cease to exist.”

This is meant in no way to sympathize with Hamas and I do understand the symbolic meaning of that quote.

This current flare up in violence is also directed at other groups in the area that would immediately move in if Hamas were to somehow moderate their relationship with Israel and the Jewish people.

The PLO and and the Fatah party immediately lost influence when they decided to make any concessions in the direction of peace. Their leaders were also threatened with violence just for becoming too moderate for the extremists.

These rival groups would take the place of Hamas and are in fact competing for their place. This punishment from Israel is also a warning to the others in the region who threaten them.
While it's goal is to remove or reduce the threat from Hamas, the extreme terrorism torch will be picked up by others soon after.

A very complex situation without a simple solution.

“When peace comes we will perhaps in time be able to forgive the Arabs for killing our sons, but it will be harder for us to forgive them for having forced us to kill their sons. Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us.”
― Golda Meir

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I've come to look at the terrorist organizations as being very similar to street gangs in American cities. Perhaps this puts it in a western perspective.

MS-13 moves into your neighborhood.
- You oppose them, they kill you or your family
- You report to authorities, they kill you or your family
- You try and leave, they kill you or your family
- They decide that your son or daughter is going to be jumped in, they kill you or your family if they refuse
They own you through the same fear and terror they use against competing gangs.

The big difference here is Hamas is the government. Imagine MS-13 being elected as Mayor and city council in your city. Police get replaced by their soldiers, all businesses support their efforts, YOU will support their efforts. Schools become indoctrination centers for kids to become MS-13 members.

Hamas has turned Gaza into a terrorist stronghold. Anyone who opposes them is killed. That is of course rationalized by the victims either being unbelievers and deserving death or as martyrs. Either way... bam, dead, moving on....

Say that happened in the city that borders yours and they try to make a move on your community and kill a bunch of people. Do you go scorched earth on your neighbors? I think not.

Will this ever end? I don't see it ending in my lifetime. In order for it to end, the hard core and radical Muslims must let go of hundreds of years of hate for non-Muslims and Jews. This whole concept of believe our way or die as an unbeliever is about 200 years out of date. It's not just the west they hate, they hate anyone who doesn't believe their way.

I would bet you that if Israel vanished tomorrow and a certain sect of Muslims took over the holy land it would be less than 5 years before it was embroiled in war again, simply because another faction disagreed and wanted control.

quote:

Originally posted by spunk639:
Is there ever going to be a peaceful resolution to the issue? This battle will rage for a while, Gaza won’t be leveled and the fighting will stop, but then what? Our current administration is feckless and laughable, will we be able to reach an accord that is tolerable to both? The longer the fighting goes, what will be the world wide impact, 1.5 million more refugees here, who is going to pay for that.

Then what?

US and international aid will pour in by the billions, 1/3 will go to rebuilding infrastructure/humanitarian efforts, 1/3 will go into terrorist leadership's pockets, 1/3 to resupply weapons. Then the attacks resume, just like they do every couple of years.

I'm probably being a little to generous on the infrastructure/humanitarian percentage.

quote:

Originally posted by Rightwire:
Will this ever end? I don't see it ending in my lifetime. In order for it to end, the hard core and radical Muslims must let go of hundreds of years of hate for non-Muslims and Jews.

You make a very good analogy. I just want to point out that this hate precedes Islam and Mohammed. This goes back thousands of years; it is the offspring of Ishmael still seeking the birthright of Isaac. Mohammed simply dressed this hate up as a religion 1500 years ago.

This hate and envy has gone on so long that Arabs don't even know why they hate Jews. They are simply inculcated with the hate from the time they are born, as were their parents, grandparents, etc. It is about like 100 successive generations of Hitler youth.

As a side note, every empire that sought to oppress or exterminate the Jewish people has ended up on the ash heap of history.

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quote:

Originally posted by Skins2881:

quote:

Originally posted by spunk639:
Is there ever going to be a peaceful resolution to the issue? This battle will rage for a while, Gaza won’t be leveled and the fighting will stop, but then what? Our current administration is feckless and laughable, will we be able to reach an accord that is tolerable to both? The longer the fighting goes, what will be the world wide impact, 1.5 million more refugees here, who is going to pay for that.

Then what?

US and international aid will pour in by the billions, 1/3 will go to rebuilding infrastructure/humanitarian efforts, 1/3 will go into terrorist leadership's pockets, 1/3 to resupply weapons. Then the attacks resume, just like they do every couple of years.

I'm probably being a little to generous on the infrastructure/humanitarian percentage.

I don't know, but I do know the idea of killing everyone, leveling the place is insane and wrong, as Para has said. How do you reach a solution that satisfies both sides. Is there a need for a DMZ like in North Korea and South Korea. Creating a peace where one side is unspeakable in thier evil and the other side is trying to maintain their sovereignty and survival is a task for a real leader.

It occurs to me now, "what pays stays" might be the only macro ideology that could be stabilizing in the region. A couple big hurdles though:

First, Hamas and their ilk would have to become providers of something useful to the Jews.

Second, Hamas and Co. would also have to value something from the Jews - other than their disappearance.

As highly unlikely as the above is, I'm not sure anything else has any chance.

quote:

Originally posted by spunk639:
Creating a peace where one side is unspeakable in thier evil and the other side is trying to maintain their sovereignty and survival is a task for a real leader.

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/...gterrorists-n2629842

A federal judge in Texas advanced a lawsuit aimed to prove the Biden Administration knowingly sent U.S. funds to Palestine, which runs the risk of ending up in the hands of terrorists.

This week, Judge Matthew J. Kacsmaryk granted a win for America First Legal (AFL), which filed a lawsuit in 2022, alleging that the Biden Administration and Secretary of State Antony Blinken green-lighted payments to the Palestinian Authority, claiming that a billion American taxpayer dollars were sent to “directly benefit and subsidize the Palestinian Authority” despite acknowledging it still operates its "Pay to Slay" program.

During the Trump Administration, the 45th president froze funds following the Taylor Force Act. This federal law prohibits the government from sending American taxpayer dollars to the Palestinian Authority if it supports terrorist activity.

Kacsmaryk said that the AFL’s "recent production of records shows that the Government knew its economic support fund (ESF) funding in the West Bank and Gaza was benefiting Palestinian terrorists, thereby ‘increasing the risk of terrorist attacks against the Plaintiffs and others similarly situated.’ They aver that the Government's ‘admission that its activities in the West Bank and Gaza benefit Hamas suggests, with reasonable particularity, the possible existence of other facts, currently hidden, establishing traceability.’ These reasons, in concert with Hamas's recent attack on Israel that killed fourteen Americans and resulted in others being held hostage, provide a sufficient basis for Plaintiff's Request," the order read.

A partial answer, sending money to Gaza has to stop

If aide is to be provided, it must be goods delivered. Not money.

Citizens of Gaza must know if Hamas attacks, the aid stops for a year after the last Hamas attack.

there should be a bigger buffer zone between Gaza and Israel. A zone where no one is allowed. Parts of Gaza are narrow from the sea to Israel

There are many similarities of the problem with Gaza to our problems with our inner cities. Not nearly as extreme here, but the similar issues include poverty, very poorly educated population, dependency on welfare, gang/mob control of large areas, hatred and envy of others better off, a resentment that their problems are caused by others, livelihoods dependent on crime, a total lack of reasonable & responsible leaders, and a vicious violent attitude towards everyone.

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If aide is to be provided, it must be goods delivered. Not money.

And nothing that can even conceivably be used for weapons manufacturing.

quote:

Originally posted by ggile:
It's not often that I will sit through a full segment of 'Danger Close' with Jack Carr, but todays segment with Haviv Rettig Gur, the senior political analyst for The Times of Israel was worth the full watch. Gur gives some very insightful thoughts into the collective mind of Israel at this point in time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EL-KQHTnFEE

Imbedded bump. And like Ben Shapiro stated (iirc), the last thing Israel wanted to do was rule over Gaza, so disinclined that allowing Hamas take over was preferred. That strategy has probably expired and they will slowly absorb reasonable Palestinians into the fold-if that's even possible at this point. Who knows how the West Bank will change. Probably won't see an Israeli citizen with their rifle for some time to come.

Apparently evidence (detailed plans) has been recovered from the bodies of the Hamas terrorists that shows that they specifically targeted venues where children would be found (schools, dental offices, etc). Video does NOT show victims or discuss victims.

quote:

Originally posted by Veeper:

quote:

Originally posted by sigalert:
Is there an author you would trust to have an unbiased telling of the history of the Middle East, both ancient and modern histories?

You’re going to find yourself with literally thousands of books at your disposal, even if your reading list starts at the year 1948.

Six Days of War: June 1967 and the Making of the Modern Middle East by Michael B. Oren is very detailed, but even with a myriad of facts and details, there is so much nuance to the conflict between the Israelis and the Arabs, it’s hard to take it all in.

One thing I’ll never forget though is this statement I heard uttered in 2008. My wife and I attended a dinner with Dr. Yossi Olmert (brother of Ehud Olmert), and he said this as simply as someone would comment on the weather:

“The rule and not the exception is this- if Hamas and Hezbollah would lay down their arms, the fighting would cease immediately. If the Jewish people lay down their arms we will cease to exist.”

While I don’t think he coined the phrase, I hadn’t ever heard it put to voice as he did.

Prager and Shapiro have said it, don't know who said it first.

quote:

Apparently evidence (detailed plans) has been recovered from the bodies of the Hamas terrorists that shows that they specifically targeted venues where children would be found (schools, dental offices, etc).

For me that was a foregone conclusion since day one. They've been planning this for years.

X95?

Israel is 7 hours ahead of us

1 am Sunday Israel

6 pm Saturday EDT

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

https://dnyuz.com/2023/10/13/t...ut-israels-military/

The 10 gunmen from Gaza knew exactly how to find the Israeli intelligence hub — and how to get inside.

After crossing into Israel, they headed east on five motorcycles, two gunmen on each vehicle, shooting at passing civilian cars as they pressed forward.

Ten miles later, they veered off the road into a stretch of woodland, dismounting outside an unmanned gate to a military base. They blew open the barrier with a small explosive charge, entered the base and paused to take a group selfie. Then they shot dead an unarmed Israeli soldier dressed in a T-shirt.

For a moment, the attackers appeared uncertain about where to go next. Then one of them pulled something from his pocket: a color-coded map of the complex.

Reoriented, they found an unlocked door to a fortified building. Once inside, they entered a room filled with computers — the military intelligence hub. Under a bed in the room, they found two soldiers taking shelter.

The gunmen shot both dead.

This sequence was captured on a camera mounted on the head of a gunman who was later killed. The New York Times reviewed the footage, then verified the events by interviewing Israeli officials and checking Israeli military video of the attack as well.

They provide chilling details of how Hamas, the militia that controls the Gaza Strip, managed to surprise and outmaneuver the most powerful military in the Middle East last Saturday — storming across the border, overrunning more than 30 square miles, taking more than 150 hostages and killing more than 1,300 people in the deadliest day for Israel in its 75-year history.

With meticulous planning and extraordinary awareness of Israel’s secrets and weaknesses, Hamas and its allies overwhelmed the length of Israel’s front with Gaza shortly after dawn, shocking a nation that has long taken the superiority of its military as an article of faith.

Using drones, Hamas destroyed key surveillance and communications towers along the border with Gaza, imposing vast blind spots on the Israeli military. With explosives and tractors, Hamas blew open gaps in the border barricades, allowing 200 attackers to pour through in the first wave and another 1,800 later that day, officials say. On motorcycles and in pickup trucks, the assailants surged into Israel, overwhelming at least eight military bases and waging terrorist attacks against civilians in more than 15 villages and cities.

Hamas planning documents, videos of the assault and interviews with security officials show that the group had a surprisingly sophisticated understanding of how the Israeli military operated, where it stationed specific units, and even the time it would take for reinforcements to arrive.

The Israeli military says that, once the war is over, it will investigate how Hamas managed to breach its defenses so easily.

But whether the armed forces were careless with their secrets or infiltrated by spies, the revelations have already unnerved officials and analysts who have questioned how the Israeli military — renowned for its intelligence gathering — could have inadvertently revealed so much information about its own operations.