quote:

Originally posted by mhughes:
Got an email from a retailer with a great deal on dig p320s no mention the the upgrade or issues, 450$ for a 9mm compact. Now unsubscribing from the retailer and will never do business with them again

You could've always bought a cheap 320 first, and sent it in to SIG for the upgrade - along with a letter identifying the retailer who sold it to you and a copy of the receipt that would show when the retailer sold it to you.

This may shock you-but most people never heard of this issue. Even most gun people. It's entirely possible your dealer doesn't know.

quote:

Originally posted by Captain Skippy:
Question here, and I admit I didn't read all 59 pages of this forum, mainly the last five. But according to the test video I saw they said the flat and glock-like trigger wouldn't fire when dropped. So is it possible just to get the flat trigger installed instead of the upgrades? I was an owner of a Springfield XDs when their recall fiasco happened. It was a cluster. Pistol sucked when returned 4 months later so I'm a little jumpy.
As a side note, I work at a gun shop and management decided to pull all the 320's off the shelf until they're fixed. Bad timing Sig, since all gun sales are down. Thanks Sig.

You could choose not to send your pistol to Sig, since the "upgrade" is voluntary. Then you can just purchase a straight trigger on your own. This will be difficult since Grayguns and Apex have stopped selling theirs until updates are made, but you may find a private party looking to get rid of theirs.

If you're wondering if Sig will just install the straight trigger in lieu of the full planned "upgrade" I think it's safe to say no. The X5s shipped with flat trigger but they are still affected by the "upgrade"... although the flat trigger will be left alone and they already have the skeletonized striker, they'll still be getting the frame/sear/slide mods to accommodate the disconnect.

To be clear, the flat trigger alone does not seem to fully correct this particular issue. It might make it harder to duplicate, but it could still be an issue. Otherwise Sig would likely just swap the triggers for the MHS hollowed out version and be done with it.

I feel like I should attempt to clarify my earlier post, since it seems I was unable to clearly explain my point of view. First of all, I am no longer in law enforcement, so you can all breathe a collective sigh of relief that such a "numbnuts" as myself is no longer wearing a badge and getting paid to enforce policy on the public. I'm just a regular ol' guy now, far too old and broken down to go getting into fights with shitbags. The odds that my personal P320 is going to end up in the middle of a tussle are about the same (or likely less) than anyone else on this board. Moving on to the point at hand; what I was trying to say in my previous post was that I personally don't feel that this safety upgrade is quite as immediately necessary as (apparently) some of you do. I'm not going to send in my P320 for this program, at least for a very long while (while we all get to see what effects it might have on the gun), and in the interim I AM going to continue to carry it and shoot it. Why? Well obviously because I'm a completely negligent asshat, right?! Maybe, but moreso because I've had some experience with firearm recalls and "safety upgrades" in the past, and often times they don't turn out so well for the end user. I still stand by my analogy of the Series 80 1911 vs. its previous non-FPS-equipped ancestor. Nobody blinks an eye if someone shows up to an IDPA shoot with his Springfield Armory 1911, yet all of a sudden I'm the "numbnuts noob" for daring to do the same with a stock P320? Why? Neither of them is mechanically drop safe by (some of) you guys' standards. Why does he get a pass and I don't? And to those who were asking if I also eschew seatbelts, actually no I do not. I religiously wear my seatbelt every time I drive or ride in a vehicle. That's because I understand the risks involved in driving a vehicle. I also understand (at least somewhat) the risks inherent in carrying a firearm for self defense. It's a calculated risk, just like every other choice we make on a daily basis. I've concluded (for myself only) that the risk of a) me dropping my loaded P320, plus b) it landing on a firm surface, plus c) it impacting on one specific part of its slide at one specific angle is so low that I'm not going to worry about it. If you are worried about it, by all means send in your gun and have them do their magic. I'm not here to tell anyone what to do. I was just trying to provide a touch of counterpoint to a previous poster who was using such complimentary terms as "noob" and "numbnuts" to describe anyone who would DARE not immediately send in their P320, given how DANGEROUS they are. It's not about me not being prone to accidents. It's not about me being better than anyone else, and it's certainly not about me thinking that only idiots have accidents. We ALL have accidents. I just don't see the same looming threat of random discharges with this platform that apparently some here (who seem to be all too willing to condemn Sig at every turn..) do.

quote:

Originally posted by JBird679:
You could choose not to send your pistol to Sig, since the "upgrade" is voluntary. Then you can just purchase a straight trigger on your own. This will be difficult since Grayguns and Apex have stopped selling theirs until updates are made

Still available at Top Gun Supply

With some "modification" needed to the slide, SIG isn't going to farm them out to Century Arms where some guy with an angle grinder is going to apply the fix, are they?

quote:

Originally posted by 2Adefender:
So I submitted my two P320's for the upgrade process. Then I thought, perhaps I'll put my P320 Compact in the safe, and go back to my old, beloved W. German P228 for awhile. Oh crap...the old P228 just doesn't feel as good in the hand anymore. Darn P320 really has me spoiled.

At least yours works. SIG's Custom Shop screwed my W. German P228 up and its nothing more than a safe queen because its so unreliable. SIG also had to replace my 556 because they had a CNC issue that led to premature wear in the upper receiver and now we have the P320 discharge problem. Perhaps SIG needs a change in upper management before they and Marlin/Remington get into an arms race to see who wins the title for most problematic gun manufacturer?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: BB61,

quote:

Originally posted by ScopeX5:
My last Sig USA products ever. Love my X5s but this whole thing is a hassle. Defiantely disappointed overall. Being in CA I have to jump through so many hoops due to how Sig treats off roster guns.

When you can't stand to look at it any further, I can provide it with a nice home...assuming you're not too far away for me to easily make two trips

Some people will never be happy no matter what Sig does. Although the amount of theater I have read in this thread is entertaining.

quote:

Originally posted by bcharvat:
I feel like I should attempt to clarify my earlier post

Breaking up big blocks of text makes them easier to read.

quote:

Originally posted by 3/4Flap:
With some "modification" needed to the slide, SIG isn't going to farm them out to Century Arms where some guy with an angle grinder is going to apply the fix, are they?

C'mon man, really? Century Arms? I thought there was enough melodrama in here already.

Without a “cause” questions will continue.

The P320 drop safety issue has exploded across the internet. Twitter, Facebook, 8Chan, gun sites, blogs, forums, and You Tubes show high interest levels. One need only search for “P320 drop” to see how far this subject has inundated the scene.

The trouble in a lot of the conversation about the P320 is that it’s conjecture. Because the “cause” has still not been disclosed, speculation blossoms. That Sig has announced a “fix” does not answer the question of why the changes fix the drop safe problem. On the surface, it seems like lighter parts will increase the margin of safety but does it mean that it will really “fix” the problem as opposed to making a drop fire less likely. If the P320 hits just right from, say, a six foot drop would it fire?

Interested people run the spectrum from those who say, “Ah, its safe enough as is” to those who want to know whether the design is still susceptible to future problems.

Sig, apparently, had various drop fire problems brought to its attention in the civilian/LEO market. Sig states that it investigated each instance and gave the pistol a clean bill of health each time. It seems that the various reports were dismissed as evidenced by the early fervent denials that there were any proven drop safe problems just a few weeks ago.

Apparently, an individual mentioned early in this thread that he immediately sent his P320 back after a drop fire last year and Sig said the pistol was fine after investigating. I guess Sig dismissed his drop fire claim because no drop fire had ever been proven to them – or so that is the impression they leave with me.

Sig similarly concluded that the police officer’s drop fire in early 2017 was not from a faulty pistol after they examined the pistol right after the incident. This is now the subject of a multi-million dollar lawsuit from the officer. I read reports that that instance was captured on surveillance video but I do not know. With all the drop fire videos out, Sig now acknowledged a real problem for the first time about a week ago.

It seems that the Yeager instructor instance would have been known to Sig because at the time, the incident was plastered everywhere in the gun community. But, I never heard of any conclusion about what may have failed to cause that discharge. Maybe that is the instance that was not directly reported to Sig. Some say it was a rock that pulled the trigger when the instructor stomped on the pistol. No testing was done that I know of. Maybe I missed it.

It would be interesting to know if Sig tried to reproduce the Yeager instructor firing. Would the shock of stomping on the side of a P320 cause it to discharge? Would that dislodge the striker? I don’t know. But, that is part of the point. We don’t know what “causes” the drop fire. The hammer induced videos and the drop fire videos imply that a “just right” shock could release the striker enough to ignite a primer. That leaves questions about any of the P320s that are not voluntarily upgraded.

At this point, without knowing the exact cause, it seems that putting in parts that will not allow it to fire in the repeated -30 degree hit, fixes the problem from a consumer point of view - for the most part. But, Sig needs to find the exact cause if they haven’t done so. What impulse will release the striker such that it ignites a primer? If they have not reached that conclusion after repeatable testing, leaving legacy units in the field leaves a question mark over the P320. I hope that some other, more comprehensive, testing is also done before the upgrades go out.

Although Sig reassures us that the “upgrade” fixes the problem, without knowing the “cause” clouds their assurances. Bruce first stated on behalf of his company that there has been no “verified” instance of a drop fire. That leads to questioning whether his words should be carefully parsed. His company is not Sig so it is not clear whether they all knew all the same things. Bruce seems to say that someone was aware of the drop fire complaints but that none of them to his knowledge were “verified.” While that may be an initially reassuring statement, it raises the question of what “verified” means – and by who.

Only by knowing the “cause” will we know that the upgrade will address any issue with the design, if any. Was the Yeager instructor instance the result of having a rock pull the trigger or was it the result of the P320 being stomped with enough shock to release the striker? Answering that question apart from repeatable testing leaves only speculation.

Alas, given that there is litigation pending, legal causes are at the heart of what the suit will determine. Hence, it seems unlikely that we will hear the answer except through the litigation. But, the engineering cause may not be the legal cause. It is not clear to me as an observer who may know the engineering “cause” at this point. Maybe something in the upgrade will solve a variety of design flaws that escaped disclosure through the testing process. We can hope so but without a “cause,” Sig is inviting speculation about what they knew when.

Someone implied that the testing did not discover the hole in the design. The P320 passed a slew of standardized tests. Well that may be legally interesting but practically, it is less than comforting to one who is not sure if his/her pistol will fire if dropped. People feel comfortable flying just feet past strangers at a closing speed of 120. But, if people think about it, it often induces a certain amount of anxiety because they got nothing but trust.

The P320 is generating anxiety in many right now. It has dislodged the glib sublimation of drop safety and has people thinking about it. Even if Sig, or anyone else for that matter, gives assurance right now, not knowing the “cause” of discharges perpetuates questions. Without knowing what caused the problem, the market is simply asked to trust.

For all consumers know, Sig just spit-balled a solution by taking parts from its military project and while putting those parts into existing civilian/LEO units discovered that it made the -30 drop fire go away. Maybe at some point we will know more but not having a “cause” does not answer the question of whether there is an issue inherent flaw in the design – especially when a mere voluntary upgrade leaves legacy units in the field.

The P320 is relatively new so some engineering assurance could help cut down on speculation and disenchantment as this all plays out.

quote:

Originally posted by mbinky:
Although the amount of theater I have read in this thread is entertaining.

Some of the guys in this thread are missing their calling, for surely they'd have a bright future in the daytime soaps.

quote:

Originally posted by JBird679:

quote:

Originally posted by Captain Skippy:
Question here, and I admit I didn't read all 59 pages of this forum, mainly the last five. But according to the test video I saw they said the flat and glock-like trigger wouldn't fire when dropped. So is it possible just to get the flat trigger installed instead of the upgrades? I was an owner of a Springfield XDs when their recall fiasco happened. It was a cluster. Pistol sucked when returned 4 months later so I'm a little jumpy.
As a side note, I work at a gun shop and management decided to pull all the 320's off the shelf until they're fixed. Bad timing Sig, since all gun sales are down. Thanks Sig.

You could choose not to send your pistol to Sig, since the "upgrade" is voluntary. Then you can just purchase a straight trigger on your own. This will be difficult since Grayguns and Apex have stopped selling theirs until updates are made, but you may find a private party looking to get rid of theirs.

If you're wondering if Sig will just install the straight trigger in lieu of the full planned "upgrade" I think it's safe to say no. The X5s shipped with flat trigger but they are still affected by the "upgrade"... although the flat trigger will be left alone and they already have the skeletonized striker, they'll still be getting the frame/sear/slide mods to accommodate the disconnect.

To be clear, the flat trigger alone does not seem to fully correct this particular issue. It might make it harder to duplicate, but it could still be an issue. Otherwise Sig would likely just swap the triggers for the MHS hollowed out version and be done with it.

Thanks for the info!

quote:

bcharvat

Wow, that is a pretty respectable WALL of TEXT.

quote:

Originally posted by Tubetone:
Without a “cause” questions will continue.

The P320 drop safety issue has exploded across the internet....................

Interesting points.

My takeaway from this situation is simple.

Just make sure you comply with standardized testing procedures when you drop your pistol on the ice or concrete and all will be good.

Case closed.

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:

quote:

bcharvat

Wow, that is a pretty respectable WALL of TEXT.

Ya beat me to it. Whether one agrees or disagrees with a poster's content, nobody wants to wade through a supercalifragilistic wall containing one GIANT paragraph.

Not picking on you bcharvat, just saying many folks won't bother attempting to read something like this. Better to get your points across with easily read paragraphs.

Look at the bright side. After some of the repaired pistols get back into the pipeline there will be EPIC videos of people launching SIG 320s trying to get them to fire. I forsee a plane drop.

quote:

Originally posted by Nipper:
nobody wants to wade through a supercalifragilistic wall containing one GIANT paragraph.

Yes, the words could contain the secret of life or the keys to great fortune and I'd never know.

quote:

Originally posted by cslinger:
Look at the bright side. After some of the repaired pistols get back into the pipeline there will be EPIC videos of people launching SIG 320s trying to get them to fire. I forsee a plane drop.

And hammering on them, throwing them, you name it.

For SIGs sake, they better not fire anymore...

I still think some moron will try this with live ammo on youtube.