Got an email today from Brownells. Thing is, Apex does not sell anything that I can use and I don't own a anything that will work with the rest of their products. So an exchange is useless and a credit for another item is pointless.

Apex Tactical Specialties Trigger Recall

Dear Valued Customer,

Our records indicate you purchased an Apex Tactical Specialties trigger – Apex Flat-Faced Action Enhanced (Apex Part#112-020) – for Sig Sauer P320 pistols.

Apex Tactical Specialties has issued the following notice regarding that trigger:

Due to Sig Sauer's recently announced voluntary upgrade of the Sig Sauer P320 pistol, announced on August 8, 2017, Apex Tactical Specialties, out of an abundance of caution, has chosen until further notice to suspend sales of those aftermarket trigger products specifically designed for use in the Sig Sauer P320.

More specifically, Apex asks you to:

1. Discontinue use of the trigger.
2. Remove or have the trigger removed immediately and contact Apex Customer Service directly at (623) 322-0200 or email them at guns@apextactical.com for an exchange or credit.
3. For more details, click HERE.

As always, thank you for continuing to place your trust in Brownells. Your safety is always our first priority.


Sincerely,

Brownells Customer Support Team

quote:

Originally posted by gordynismo:
Got an email today from Brownells. Thing is, Apex does not sell anything that I can use and I don't own a anything that will work with the rest of their products. So an exchange is useless and a credit for another item is pointless.

Apex Tactical Specialties Trigger Recall

Dear Valued Customer,

Our records indicate you purchased an Apex Tactical Specialties trigger – Apex Flat-Faced Action Enhanced (Apex Part#112-020) – for Sig Sauer P320 pistols.

Apex Tactical Specialties has issued the following notice regarding that trigger:

Due to Sig Sauer's recently announced voluntary upgrade of the Sig Sauer P320 pistol, announced on August 8, 2017, Apex Tactical Specialties, out of an abundance of caution, has chosen until further notice to suspend sales of those aftermarket trigger products specifically designed for use in the Sig Sauer P320.

More specifically, Apex asks you to:

1. Discontinue use of the trigger.
2. Remove or have the trigger removed immediately and contact Apex Customer Service directly at (623) 322-0200 or email them at guns@apextactical.com for an exchange or credit.
3. For more details, click HERE.

As always, thank you for continuing to place your trust in Brownells. Your safety is always our first priority.


Sincerely,

Brownells Customer Support Team

I get why they are offering a credit, for a small business like Apex, a recall of this size has the potential to put them out of business. Personally I would chalk this one up to bad luck and hope that Apex stays around to continue producing quality components. Your best bet may be to just do an exchange, then sell whatever item you exchange for cash on a forum.

quote:

Originally posted by lordhamster:

I get why they are offering a credit, for a small business like Apex, a recall of this size has the potential to put them out of business. Personally I would chalk this one up to bad luck and hope that Apex stays around to continue producing quality components.

I really liked my advanced curved trigger. And I have to agree. I can take the loss, I just hope they don't give up on the platform and make another trigger. Maybe by that time I can do an exchange. They make some great stuff I just don't own anything to support their products.

quote:

Originally posted by lordhamster:

OK somebody needs to photoshop a 320 into the scene from True Lies!

Like many I have a 320 and I will send it in and wait. I really like it so far and I will keep it as long as the fix doesn't make the trigger terrible.

quote:

Originally posted by Tubetone:
Without a “cause” questions will continue...

I would very much like Sig to explain what they have determined to be the cause as well, but I think there are two independent sources of information that we can use until Sig announces their official determination.

First read this article on, "The Mechanics Behind SIG P320 Drop Safety Failures"
www.TheTruthAboutGuns.com/2017/08/jeremy-s/mechanics-behind-sig-p320-drop-safety-failures/

RecoilWeb did an interview with two of Sig's employees which was recorded at Sig's facilities. I had never heard of RecoilWeb until another Member posted this earlier in the thread.

Link to Interview:
http://videos.RecoilWeb.com/channel/random?video=KQjb1zpB1e4K-rweb-p320pr-081117

In the interview, Sig employee John Grasseur makes specific statements (starting at 1:55 into the recording) about the physics of the P320 problem including:

Trigger Bar movement
Less mass less inertia
Amount of impact with the ground
Beaver tail absorbing impact like a
New trigger, hollow to remove weight
New striker, remove weight
New sear
Added disconnect

Although not directly stating the cause of the problem, I believe his comments confirm what the article outlines about the cause of the problem.

Again, as a P320 Armorer I would like Sig to issue an official statement identifying the cause and why their Upgrade resolves it...

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
Someone, anyone- please tell me what I think about all of this.

I'm gonna go for door number 2.

quote:

Originally posted by sleepla8er:

quote:

Originally posted by Tubetone:
Without a “cause” questions will continue...

I would very much like Sig to explain what they have determined to be the cause as well, but I think there are two independent sources of information that we can use until Sig announces their official determination.

First read this article on, "The Mechanics Behind SIG P320 Drop Safety Failures"
www.TheTruthAboutGuns.com/2017/08/jeremy-s/mechanics-behind-sig-p320-drop-safety-failures/

RecoilWeb did an interview with two of Sig's employees which was recorded at Sig's facilities. I had never heard of RecoilWeb until another Member posted this earlier in the thread.

Link to Interview:
http://videos.RecoilWeb.com/channel/random?video=KQjb1zpB1e4K-rweb-p320pr-081117

In the interview, John Grasseur makes specific statements (starting at 1:55 into the recording) about the physics of the P320 problem including:

Trigger Bar movement
Less mass less inertia
Amount of impact with the ground
Beaver tail absorbing impact like a
New trigger, hollow to remove weight
New striker, remove weight
New sear
Added disconnect

Although not directly stating the cause of the problem, I believe his comments confirm what the article outlines about the cause of the problem.

Again, as a P320 Armorer I would like Sig to issue an official statement identifying the cause and why their Upgrade resolves it...

Thanks for your thoughts. I knew of those sources. That's why I stated that "it seems like lighter parts will increase the margin of safety but does it mean that it will really “fix” the problem as opposed to making a drop fire less likely."

Cause is not an idle curiosity because I was alluding to what may instill more confidence that the new parts will fix the problem.

Was there any testing of the alleged stomp fire example? That discharge was widely known.

Is tolerance stacking loosening the engagement such that a jolt will let the striker fly? Is the weight of the parts the fix or are better parts tolerances making the difference?

For non-upgraded P320s, are some in better tolerance than others such that they pass the -30 test, too? We don't even know that at this point.

quote:

Originally posted by Tubetone:
Thanks for your thoughts. I knew of those sources. That's why I stated that "it seems like lighter parts will increase the margin of safety but does it mean that it will really “fix” the problem as opposed to making a drop fire less likely."

Cause is not an idle curiosity because...

Yes Sir, all great points.

Unfortunately, the P320 problem is not as cut and dry as the P220's drop safety issue.

For those not aware, the original P220 design had an issue when the shooter did not use the decocker and chose to thumb release the hammer while pulling the trigger. The hammer was free to move and given sufficient force impact the firing pin discharging the weapon.

Decocking the hammer is a hard and fast rule with all of my Sigs. Back in the 1970s and 80's, there were two maybe three pistols that had previously had a decocking lever. Up until that point in time, thumbing down the hammer was the norm and for many it was a hard habit to break as was learning to rely on a new technology called a decocker.

This unsafe configuration was determined to be the cause of an accidental discharge in 2002 when a San Fernando, CA SWAT officer dropped his duty belt. The P220, while still holstered hit the concrete causing the hammer to impact the chambered round. The officer was killed from a single gunshot wound through the head in the station's parking lot. www.CATOnews.org/we-remember-a...ficer-jesse-paderez/

Scary how similar the Stamford Connecticut SWAT Officer's P320 incident is to the San Fernando, CA SWAT officer's P220 incident. Both discharges occurred while the pistols were secured in their holsters.

With the P220 issue, there is a simple test...

With a confirmed unloaded P220, rack the slide and with the pistol pointed in a safe direction pull the trigger while thumbing down the hammer. Keep the trigger pulled all the way to the rear ~ until the hammer is in the down position then gently push the hammer forward to see how far it travels to impact the firing pin. This is the normal firing sequence of your P220 pistol.

Release the hammer and rack the slide again then use the decocker lever to return the hammer to the ready position. The hammer will rest in a notch and will not move forward when you apply pressure with your thumb on the hammer.

Rack the slide for a third time and using the trigger and thumb, return the hammer to its resting position. After you release the trigger, gently use your thumb to push the hammer forward. If the hammer moves forward, it will impact the firing pin confirming you have one of the early P220s. If the hammer does not move, then your P220 was produced after Sig made the change.

The P220 issue also had a simple solution, always use the decocker lever and never thumb down the hammer.

.

quote:

Originally posted by Tubetone:

quote:

Originally posted by arcwelder76:

quote:

Originally posted by Tubetone:

quote:

Originally posted by Nipper:
In the end, Sig resolved the problem.

Has it? There will still be P320s on the line that are not upgraded that Sig says are drop safe by one standard while we know that it goes off if dropped a particular way when other pistols don't.

Did that resolve the problem?

People bring guns to the range all the time that are not drop safe. There are lots of them out there. How often do people drop loaded guns at the range? Not all that often. There are reasons they want you pointing loaded guns in a particular direction.

If you look down the line, you'll find guns from not just decades past, but centuries. Plenty of these guns aren't "drop safe."

In the case of range safety, it's the individual. If you see someone drop a gun at a range, that's not all you'll see, and it doesn't matter if the gun discharges or not. A range safety officer isn't going to give two shits that a gun didn't go off if someone dropped it, that shit will be dealt with PDQ. If the weapon did discharge, and in what direction, will determine if that person is ever allowed on the line again. What the gun was doesn't matter.

Arc. I previously cited to you some references of where the P320 is getting banned.

Today, I contacted Jon Boch of GSL Tactical - I believe a different company than I gave you before. He is a principal owner. They have about 20 firearms instructors. Link I told him I called because I wanted to verify facts before I posted about their position.

They have banned the P320 from all of their classes through at least the end of the year. They have a lawyer and Jon says that the liability isn’t worth the risk. He said that he wants people to be safe. He also doesn’t want to get sued and his lawyer says that with all the videos out, a jury won’t care about some industry drop standard. They will look at his company having knowledge of the drop fire issue and their failure to act. They have loaner guns and so many easy, safe alternatives.

He said that if Sig makes a fix that is easy to see from the outside of the P320 such as the new trigger, then he would likely allow that P320 again. He said that there was no way he would break down a P320 to verify if it had all the right parts on a pistol by pistol basis.

He said a lot of law enforcement agencies have banned the P320 and he knows of other trainers and ranges that will likely ban the P320, too.

By the way, he loves the P320 but says he just can’t risk it. Even if Sig upgrades many P320s, the legacy P320 is banned.

I guess people could argue all day about whether it should be banned but agencies, ranges and instructors are banning it.

The P320 drop fire problem has created its own weather so comparisons to other pistols does not address what is actually happening across the country.

Maybe Sig could return the gun with a certification that it has been upgraded. That would be simple and little or no cost to Sig.

The world gone mad

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
The world gone mad

Nicely understated.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
The world gone mad

You know, once a safety issue becomes a focus, it can be like the Salem Witch Trials.

That 350,000 P320 samples have produced few problems, doesn't help; it gets banned because its safety is questioned.

When speaking with Jon today, he thought it was like the Serpa holster analysis. It doesn't matter that 8 million are in circulation with statistically few problems (all from misuse), they'll just get banned in some places. It's not worth the risk because unquestioned safe alternatives are thought to be available.

The P320 is getting tossed into that kind of barrel for now.

It is a rather simple analysis for many once "safety" is questioned.

It will not kill the P320. It will just mar it up in this mad world.

Rob Pincus tweeted out today that the SIG P320 is no longer allowed in his courses unless it has been the recipient of the new trigger upgrade.

https://twitter.com/PincusRob/...s/897652280614420481

quote:

Originally posted by ThmsMgnm:
Rob Pincus tweeted out today that the SIG P320 is no longer allowed in his courses unless it has been the recipient of the new trigger upgrade.

https://twitter.com/PincusRob/...s/897652280614420481

Yeah, they might discharge when mortaring into a hay bale.

The biggest danger may being struck by falling sky when in the presence of the P320. That seems to happen a lot lately.

Even worse is the high probability of being stuck in an elevator in a one-story building.

What a crock. Perhaps we'll move to using attorneys as R.O.'s. Wouldn't THAT be fun...

Do you think these "instructors" and ranges are just jumping on the bandwagon to get there name out there ?

This is so blown out of proportion I think the world has gone madd!!!

While I agree that this event has taken a life of it's own, to completely discount the fact that the P320 has been demonstrated to be only mainstream striker fired gun to discharge when dropped on the back of it's slide is just as 'mad'.

Maybe these ranges just don't want the liability that might come with a gun being so widely demonstrated to drop when fired?

Maybe these instructors don't want a student to drop one and get shot in the head?

IDK, maybe that's just a crazy concept of mine.

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:
The biggest danger may being struck by falling sky when in the presence of the P320. That seems to happen a lot lately.

<looks outside...> I have a P320 and it is awfully dark out there today. And the ground is all wet, like the sky is leaking or something. And I heard the sun will disappear in the middle of the day on Monday! Now you got me nervous