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Member |
SIG can email bomb the world with more of their explanations and hand wringing, and it will do nothing to restore public trust in the P320. It’s not as much the 320 mechanism that the people no longer have confidence in, it’s the belief that SIG will do the right thing and put safety first and foremost that the public has lost confidence in. I also find that press release from SIG about ICE renewing their contract to be more than a little slimy. It says that the contract was renewed but the contract is for the ability to purchase pistols at a particular price and spec, not an agreement to actually purchase anything. Casting doubt on the veracity of the ICE memo is also a bit slimy as there are absolutely members of that organization that will be turning in their 320 pistols and getting Glock 19 pistols. That’s a fact according to some of my contacts with HSI. The tide has turned and the shooting public is insisting upon their pound of flesh from SIG. This email campaign will not make things right between SIG and the shooting public. “It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.” | |||
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| Member |
It’s getting harder to blow these incidents off as fake with the numbers of complaints and video that support their claims. It all Comes out in the end and SIG is receiving Irreparably damage to their reputation. | |||
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| Member |
I'm sure the engineering can ultimately figure out what is the issue if they want to. And fix it if they want to. But what, at the moment, I find completely brain dead is that Sig shows nothing about the issue on the website or social media that I can see. Did I miss it somewhere? The 320 page looks completely normal propaganda (selected by everybody). Why on earth wouldn't you at least acknowledge the controversy. Seems to be totally backward to me. “So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.” | |||
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| Member |
I’m an engineer working in manufacturing. My background is in machinery design, and I’ve done quite a lot of molded parts, bent sheet metal parts, and machined parts. I have *never* specified tolerances of +.002”/-.004” on a bent sheet metal part. Why? Because I know there’s NFW I’m going to actually achieve them. And guess what? Sig didn’t achieve them either.  Incidentally, the frame rails being shaped like that (in other words, both undersized and not even close to square) could quite easily account for a lot of the so-called “shake-awake” behavior. Mine measures exactly the same, by the way. | |||
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| Member |
I actually give SIG the benefit of the doubt on this. I’m not sure that anyone knows what the problem or possibly problems are. There’s a lot of variables in play. The 320 is also probably the most complicated operating system out there right now and there’s a lot of areas where a problem could rear its head, so I can 100% believe that any problem or problem is not clear cut. I absolutely believe that SIG is capable of making great, high quality stuff, but the way they’ve handled this whole situation has left a lot of bad feelings about company management, far more than company engineering. “It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.” | |||
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| Freethinker |
I just received an email from SIG about the issue that specifically denies the claims that: 1. The Michigan State Police stopped issuing the pistol after the FBI report. 2. That DHS/ICE discontinued use of the pistol. 3. That the US military forces ordered a halt to use of the M17 and M18 pistols. According to the email, “some” Air Force units have discontinued its use pending the results of the investigation of the fatal accident. Those statements should be easy to verify if true and are based on anything other than Internet reports. The email includes a link to an excellent video demonstrating and explaining the firing mechanism of the P320: https://cdn.bfldr.com/EN1VTHA0...PLFbiT80pjlPM.SKxiWA ► 6.0/94.0 “I can’t give you brains, but I can give you a diploma.” — The Wizard of Oz | |||
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Fighting the good fight |
Here's the complete text of Sig's latest email message:
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Shall Not Be Infringed |
^^ Uhhh, towards the bottom of the previous page  ____________________________________________________________ If Some is Good, and More is Better.....then Too Much, is Just Enough !! Trump 47....Making America Great Again! "May Almighty God bless the United States of America" - parabellum 7/26/20 Live Free or Die! | |||
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Member |
I thought Sig said the holsters were the problem.  Grain of salt. Joe Back in Tx. | |||
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Lost |
Wyoming Gun Project mentions just that at the end of his followup 320 video... | |||
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Member |
Interesting how this never happened to the 14 m17s we were carrying when my team and I left Afghanistan in Aug 2021. We shot them a lot pre deployment because new system and I had more ammo allocation than some battalions so you would think the m17s would have died and we carried one in chamber. The only thing we did was replace the recoil spring before we went down range because it’s a wear item we could replace. If I had not just retired I would be going over my teams m17s because I think this is more of a compact p320/m18 issue because of maybe its parts wear issue like my gen3 Glock 19s vs my one Glock 34. I sold My compact p320s to a friend and bought 6 p365 variants. I like Them and have ran them hard in competitions and the like. I’ve been wanting to add a safety to my tacops and macro because I have 3 other p365 have safeties one xl that is mischief machine but the only thing I did was get a new trigger return spring kind of like how 1911 guys buy a new 1911 and replace them with wolff or 10-8 springs. I added The +10 spring. I actually Liked the pre voluntary recall p320 the best when I had it and the only issue was the whole odd angle it had to be to go off. Sometimes trying to fix one issue will result in other issues. I wonder if the X frame that was used for some FMS m17/18 builds might ironically rectify the p320/m18 frame. This was an question I brought up with the two competition shooters that I train with on at times when not doing dad stuff, and they said it “feels” like the lockup is better but they do not know. Lastly i got Some newish us made primers to replicate a load I have been using because it was the same brand and the primers are softer than most of the small pistols primers I had ordered pre covid. So the dragging/indention issue we had seen on some ammo that did not go off might be a primer lot change due to material cost. So we have parts wear out, softer primer, and maybe a frame being too loose. | |||
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| Member |
Yeah, I talked to him about it yesterday before he put that up. At some point he’s going to measure the frame rails on his 320’s and get back to me. I’m trying to compile a list of measurements to get a sense of what’s going on there. | |||
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| Savor the limelight |
Wouldn’t partially pulling the trigger disengage the striker safety block and engage the sear enough to prevent it from moving thus render the secondary sear notch incapable of catching the striker? The first and second parts are by design so the gun can go bang when the trigger pull is finished. Since the trigger is being pulled, this test proves nothing as far as the P320 supposedly just going off without the trigger being pulled. I’m not sure what situation where the gun going off because its operator partially pulled the trigger then giggled the slide would be an issue. Is anybody doing that? | |||
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| Member |
Like others have posted, I also received the recent email from SIG regarding these incidents. However, what is really 'telling' to me is that the SIG Authorized Dealers I've asked will not take P320s in on trade for other guns (even other SIGs). So, SIG Corporate needs to communicate something to their dealers (protection against future lawsuits, etc.) to alleviate their dealer's concerns. If I could trade my P320 in for the (much more expensive) new SIG P226 carry I'd do it in a heartbeat! (especially the SAO model  ) | |||
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| Savor the limelight |
The dealer was also a defendant in the one lawsuit I looked at. That’s the problem for dealers. SIG may have the money to defend itself, but I’d guess most dealers don’t. | |||
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Member |
After a couple videos, updated videos, and overall observations, amidst red herrings scenarios (uncommanded discharge claims to cover for actual human caused NDs), the seemingly less-than robustness of the seer engagement and slide to frame fit, in addition to the trigger take-up disabling the FP block, and the fact that holsters are somehow involved, I would speculate that the width of the trigger (as was mentioned in a video) being close enough to the width of the trigger guard, may interfere with the retention characteristics of a kydex holster where the take-up is achieved when holstered. After all, if the FP block is not deactivated, then while the seer may slip, no discharge will occur. So, thinner trigger? Sometimes it's the simplest things. I will now take off my Richard Feynman hat. | |||
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Member |
seems like smoke, there's fire... I don't fault any range or public safety agency from banning 320's until this is sorted out I have a full size 320 .45 i bought at release, sent it in for the voluntary "upgrade" when that happened Ive never carried the pistol nor stored it loaded, or ever had it in a holster - guess i should rack it and check it every few days to see if it fired... *Handguns are fine, Shotguns are final | |||
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| Member |
Great post. Seems like the FCU blank could have the rail sections made longer and then the outboard rail ends machined to a tighter tolerance. Adds cost of course. One drawback with the FCU concept is that the rails can't be spaced very far apart. This magnifies sloppy rail fitment. IIRC, Glock, with their cast in frame rails had a problem with spacing and ultimately increased spacing to control frame flex. SIG should look at tightening up those slides/rails. | |||
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| Member |
That would resolve the length, but I think the current too-short-ness is a result not hitting the target angle. If they could actually hit 90 degrees, I expect the rails would have the correct width. | |||
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| Member |
If one guy in Wyoming can at least raise some questions, I'm sure SIG with engineering teams, production managers and assembly employees know and have known more than they are saying.They also know how to fix the P320 but have chosen to ignore any problems. SIG denies and obfuscates with the latest email a good example. For example citing "rigorous testing" by the military, when they cut the testing short is misleading at best, likely a lie. | |||
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