quote:

Originally posted by nhracecraft:
Regardless, I'm gonna go out on a limb and state that 'jiggling of the slide' is NOT something that happens on a loaded P320 with a fully loaded magazine inserted.

How do you mean? In the video, he caused a striker drop by jiggling the slide on his 320 with a loaded (with primered cases) mag.

quote:

Originally posted by DanH:

quote:

Originally posted by Dawes:
MIM is used widely, although it tends to be a sore subject among the 1911 crowd.

The difference is designing a part around the strengths of a MIM part vs making a MIM part to the exact size of a tool steel part and expecting to work the same. Just like a polymer AR lower, you can make it work, but it won't be a perfect 1:1 copy.

Because 1911 people (me included) want a 3.5 lb trigger with zero creep that is 100% reliable and lasts forever. That means hammer hooks cut down to 0.020", proper sear length, primary, and secondary angles. And the hammer hooks are not full width like every other handgun hammer I've seen.

MIM done right is almost the same as forged. But you need good process control to prevent voids. Funny thing is some guns touting zero-MIM had cast parts which are not be as good as properly made MIM parts.

quote:

Originally posted by Lt CHEG:
<<snip>> It might just be that this design is completely intolerant of anything less than top notch metallurgy and incredibly precise dimensioning of parts, <<snip>>

That is my personal opinion on the matter after watching too many videos on how the P320 FCU works; it just seems way too complicated, and seems like it requires considerable precision of parts to operate correctly. I keep thinking back to my engineering days and the KISS principle (Keep It Simple Stupid). Some firearm designs are brilliant in their simplicity, and others I feel are way too complex, and the P320 is one of those!

How hard would it be for Sig USA to take the design of the P365 FCU and upscale it into the P320 FCU? They already have the design, just make it bigger to fit the larger pistol! Since the 365 isn't designed to handle the workload/longevity of the 320, upscaling to larger/stronger parts should take care of that (IMHO)...

quote:

Originally posted by SigSauerP226:

quote:

Originally posted by sigmonkey:
The Flim-Flam man is always amongst us.

At this point, too many people are trying to make a name, fame and/or fortune from this hot mess.

I am skeptical. For all I know, he (the guy pulling the trigger slightly or so and pinching the slide) could have installed the "Sig provided self upgrade parts" incorrectly, and I notice he turns the screw in 5 times (reading lips) and also he does not use the calipers correctly/consistently and screwed up the math several times.

And a few times he didn't get the "bang" he wanted, he turns the screw in a turn or two until he does.

Certainly not gaining any confidence in his mastery of scientific method.

I'm still with Pogo on this one.

I think people need to stop watching videos and just do what they’re doing. I did and I could not for the life of me replicate their bullshit. Fuck the screw and a slight trigger pull, I took the trigger to the wall and pinched/beat the gun with my hand from all angles to get their result… only I didn’t.

It's very likely that "Wyoming Guy" has taken the striker block out of play with the way he holds the trigger back with his screw.
He may also be starting the sear to drop which would have the striker lug perching on the sear.
We really don't know, but that is possible.

My response to Wyoming Guy is to let a qualified expert on P320 examine his pistol.
Someone that both camps would agree to.
Someone that has the capability to verify in spec and out of spec component parts.

quote:

It's very likely that "Wyoming Guy" has taken the striker block out of play with the way he holds the trigger back with his screw.
He may also be starting the sear to drop which would have the striker lug perching on the sear.
We really don't know, but that is possible.

I believe that's exactly what's happening, with one difference. First of all, the striker safety is definitely deactivated on the initial trigger take-up, as it's designed to do. Nothing to do with faulty parts or broken springs, just that part of the gun doing what it's supposed to do.

Then a bit more trigger pull, and a sear perch condition is created. I believe on some guns, there is enough tolerance slack (or some other quality issue) that the sear perch persists even if you now release pressure on the trigger. You now have a gun with a dead trigger that's ready to go off with just a jiggle of the slide or other jostle of the gun. Maybe it just creeps by itself in some cases, like that unfortunate airman (I know the details are unconfirmed).

Just some guns, which is why it's been so difficult to reproduce.

quote:

Originally posted by bronicabill:
How hard would it be for Sig USA to take the design of the P365 FCU and upscale it into the P320 FCU?

That is very reasonable and rationale thought. The problem is Sig has dug in their heels with this and have a vested interest in maintaining the talking points, because it would be an admission that the 320 is flawed in its design. Not saying it won't happen eventually, but sig is going to ride or die with "It Ends today". They have to blame everyone/everything except the 320 design.

Loss of .mil sales is the 800lb gorilla in the room for Sig. When/if that happens Sig may improved the deign with a P365 like design. And the P365 is a much better design.

quote:

Originally posted by DirectDrive:

My response to Wyoming Guy is to let a qualified expert on P320 examine his pistol.
Someone that both camps would agree to.
Someone that has the capability to verify in spec and out of spec component parts.

My response to Wyoming guy, do the same exact test with the P365, Glock, Echelon...pick a gun. and see if it happens.

I'd be willing to bet it doesn't.

I don't know - withdraw all M17/M18 weapons and buy a bunch of P226's and SP2022's

This was helpful to see how the fcu functions. I probably wouldn't carry my lc9s pro appendix with that trigger .



I don't think I like how these two parts engage and move at 2:40. Potential out of spec point?

The jackals are really piling on, now. Tons of recommends in my youtoob feed from smaller parts businesses with channels (I've never heard of or viewed) stating they are clearing out their 320 stuff and will cease to make parts for them until this is resolved. Nothing like grabbing a bit of free marketing in the wake of this PR disaster.

I'm thinking there is a way out for Sig.

1. create a replacement design a la 365. direct drop-in FCU
2. offer replacement FCU 365/320 at a reasonable cost
3. watch the orders flow in. Sig gets $200 for each replacement. I get a safe pistol. I get to keep using my holsters, magazine pouches, magazines, etc. My investment (ha!) maintains functional value to me.

No admission of anything. No commentary. Just a "voluntary upgrade" for anyone with any concern.

New FCU can be stamped with original SN IF and only if the original FCU is returned to Sig. As a repair, the only cost would be postage. No need for FFL. Sig has a repair postage system, pre-paid labels, etc. already. You send in FCU. Sig sends the FCU back to you, the owner. You pop the new FCU in place, and move on.

Saw a flyer for a local competition. Brought to you by Sig Sauer. That had a note about P320s being banned from the competition.

Dang. Brought to you by Sig Sauer. But no 320s... Para was right. Dominoes...

quote:

Originally posted by 4MUL8R:
I'm thinking there is a way out for Sig.

1. create a replacement design a la 365. direct drop-in FCU
2. offer replacement FCU 365/320 at a reasonable cost
3. watch the orders flow in. Sig gets $200 for each replacement. I get a safe pistol. I get to keep using my holsters, magazine pouches, magazines, etc. My investment (ha!) maintains functional value to me.

No admission of anything. No commentary. Just a "voluntary upgrade" for anyone with any concern.

New FCU can be stamped with original SN IF and only if the original FCU is returned to Sig. As a repair, the only cost would be postage. No need for FFL. Sig has a repair postage system, pre-paid labels, etc. already. You send in FCU. Sig sends the FCU back to you, the owner. You pop the new FCU in place, and move on.

You're gonna need a new upper too. Just saying.

quote:

Originally posted by 4MUL8R:
I'm thinking there is a way out for Sig.

1. create a replacement design a la 365. direct drop-in FCU
2. offer replacement FCU 365/320 at a reasonable cost
3. watch the orders flow in. Sig gets $200 for each replacement. I get a safe pistol. I get to keep using my holsters, magazine pouches, magazines, etc. My investment (ha!) maintains functional value to me.

No admission of anything. No commentary. Just a "voluntary upgrade" for anyone with any concern.

New FCU can be stamped with original SN IF and only if the original FCU is returned to Sig. As a repair, the only cost would be postage. No need for FFL. Sig has a repair postage system, pre-paid labels, etc. already. You send in FCU. Sig sends the FCU back to you, the owner. You pop the new FCU in place, and move on.

As for #3 on the list:
The $200. Who is Sig Sauer getting the money from?
Certainly not MY money.

I like the rest of your easy fix, but…
Since the FCU has an SN, doesn’t it have to go through an FFL?

And I don’t think Sig Sauer is going to be able to “get out easy” in any way on this one.

A way out?

How could anyone who believes the hype possibly believe SIG could do anything right?

quote:

Originally posted by Dawes:
I don't know - withdraw all M17/M18 weapons and buy a bunch of P226's and SP2022's

I will have to admit, the more I play with my latest SP2022 the more I love it, to the point that I now enjoy it better than my W. German P226...

And one could make the case for the SP 2022 that it is a NATO approved arm; if not wrong, the French Gendarmerie is part of the Army, not the National Police. SigSentry posted a video of an SP 2022 going 5K rounds with no malfunction in the SP 2022 update thread. Reinforces my opinion of the arm.

Email from SIG...P320 Information

P320 Safety Information

Recently, there have been a number of reports and claims regarding the safety of the P320 pistol and its use by the U.S. Military and law enforcement agencies. We understand you may have questions. We want to address your concerns and provide you with full, complete, and accurate information.

SIG SAUER has ALWAYS and will continue to put the safety and security of the U.S. Military, the law enforcement community, our consumers, and the public first. To this end, we want to be sure concerned citizens have access to complete facts.

The P320 pistol is one of the safest, most advanced pistols in the world -meeting and exceeding all industry safety standards. Its design has been thoroughly tested and validated by the U.S. Military and law enforcement agencies at the federal, state and local levels. In addition, the P320 has been rigorously tested, and is currently in use by militaries and law enforcement agencies around the world.

FBI Testing and Report

A recently publicized internal report from the FBI’s Ballistic Research Facility (BRF) created some confusion and raised questions about the safety of the P320. The FBI prepared this report for the Michigan State Police after an officer was involved in an accidental discharge. SIG SAUER engineers met with the FBI and Michigan State Police on several occasions to review the report and the incident. Ultimately, the FBI conducted a more detailed, repeatable, and comprehensive battery of testing using compatible equipment. The subsequent testing resulted in zero instances of failures and the Michigan State Police are now confidently issuing officers P320 based pistols. The FBI BRF have yet to make any official claims or statements regarding the safety of the P320 pistol or any of its variants. However, we are urging the FBI BRF and FBI Director Kash Patel to release a full and complete testing and evaluation report on their updated P320 safety testing.

Department of Homeland Security

An internal memo from the Department of Homeland Security (DHS)/ U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) was recently posted online stating the agency was halting its use of the P320. Many online media outlets immediately sought to attribute this to the above referenced FBI BRF report, which is incorrect. DHS has never raised any safety concerns about the P320 and ICE has since extended their existing contract with SIG SAUER another two years. Since DHS has yet to comment publicly correcting their improperly leaked memo, or any statements questioning the safety of the P320, we are now urging ICE to release all information on P320 testing. SIG SAUER is honored to continue aiding ICE in their mission to protect America.

U.S. Air Force M18

There was a recent tragic incident at F.E. Warren Air Force Base in Wyoming which resulted in the death of an Airman. Because the incident involved the discharge of a (P320 based) M18 pistol, the Air Force is actively conducting an evaluation of M18 pistols within the specific Command where the incident happened. This cautionary step is standard procedure. We proactively offered assistance to the U.S. military as they investigate the incident. Contrary to several online reports, (P320 based) M17 and M18 pistols remain on active duty with all branches of the U.S. Military, including the U.S. Air Force, defending freedom around the world. We have absolute confidence in the U.S. Military’s ability to conduct a thorough investigation and report their findings. As we learn more information about the investigation, we will continue to provide updated information.

P320 Range and Training Bans

Following several of these inaccurate reports, a number of ranges, training providers, and training facilities made the reactionary decision to ban the P320 and its use in their facilities. We are actively working to provide these individuals with accurate information along with a detailed understanding of the P320 and its safety features. If you are impacted by a P320 range or a training provider ban, we urge you to reach out to SIG CUSTOMER SERVICE: 603-610-3000 Option 1 or send a message here so we can clarify any misinformation and provide the truth.

The P320 CANNOT, under any circumstances, discharge without the trigger first being moved to the rear. This has been verified through exhaustive testing by SIG SAUER engineers, the U.S. Military, several major federal and state law enforcement agencies, and independent laboratories. This Video provides a detailed view into all of the various safety features of the P320 and provides a detailed explanation of how the safety system works; for further information on the P320 please visit here.

As with any gun, the P320 will discharge if the trigger is pulled to the rear. Accordingly, SIG SAUER continues to remind its customers, employees, and the public to employ all safe gun-handling practices as spelled out in detail in our product manuals. The SIG SAUER Academy remains a resource to customers, employees, and the public in offering various firearms safety courses.

We respect the public’s concern and are actively working to provide as much information as possible. We sincerely thank you for your continued support of SIG SAUER and urge anyone with additional questions or concerns regarding the P320 and/or safe firearms handling to reach out to our customer service team.

I am very interested in this discussion. I own four P320s, and they have been my EDC for several years.
I have a great trust in Bruce Gray's work and opinion, and I am waiting to see what he discovers about this whole situation.

Sorry if this old info.
Seemed to make sense.

https://youtu.be/8xgTRigFvOE?si=TeWEw9fJ_JWG5-jX