quote:

Originally posted by Blackwater:

Except for an immediate match disqualification, does IDPA track the number of ADs, shooter and which weapon was used? And do they have a reportable database on which to pull this info? ...

Nope.

Well, here's my response to the current 320 situation. My local indoor range issued the statemeant that started with, "Out of an abundance of caution..." and banned the Sig 320 and XTen from being used at the range. Problem is the next closest indoor range is 6 hours away in Fairbanks.

I've got 2 XTens, an original 5" and a Comp. I've also got a lot invested in spare magazines, holsters, red dot sights, etc. Not much sense in carrying a firearm that I can't practice with. So now I get to start all over again breaking in a new pistol, experimenting with loads, equipping with a red dot and ordering holsters for.

Glock G20 Gen 5.

C'mon, man, it's Alaska...tons of places to go shoot outside! You don't want to be breathing all that gunsmoke, anyway.

Seriously, though...it sucks you got put in that situation. On the other hand, absolutely nothing wrong with a new G20!

I went through Aug 13, 2025 on this thread to see if what I'm about to post has been posted already but I don't see it.

I don't know what to think about the issue nor do I have an opinion; it would be very uninformed anyway. I'm putting the links in so that others can look at it and perhaps give their opinion.

I got this first link from an email from a local indoor range. The link is to an article from The Smoking Gun.

Court Records Reveal Sig Sauer Knew of Pistol Risks for Years.

The article itself doesn't say much. What did caught my eye is a link to a supposed unredacted version of a court document titled

“Failure Modes, Effects, and Criticality Analysis” (FMECA).

It's supposed to have been prepared by Sig Sauer about a month after the Army officially adopted the P320.

From the article:

quote:

"Sig Sauer’s own analysis identified 13 different situations where P320s could fire unintentionally, but many were left unresolved. While seven were “eliminated” according to Sig Sauer, six were still designated as posing a “medium” risk to users. Notably, many of the “recommended actions” to address the issues, either partially or fully, involved user training — not a design modification."

I looked at the FMECA report myself. You have to download it and magnify to make it readable. Each failure mode is classified as A - Frequent, likely to occur often; B - Probable, will occur several times in the life of an item; C - Occasional, likely to occur; D - Remote, unlikely but possible to occur sometimes; E - Improbable, So unlikely occurrence may not be experienced in the life of an item; and F - eliminated, incapable of occurring.

Severity levels go from 1 Catastrophic as in death, 2 Critical resulting in disability or injury, 3 Marginal losing 2 or more lost work days but reversible, and 4 Negligible, injuries not resulting in lost work day.

No A or B item are related to the design or are critical. They have 3 Cs on page 1, occasional occurrence of killing person unintentionally related to 1) accidental trigger pull by finger and 2) Accidental trigger pull by object and 3) improper clearing before takedown.

There's a C below the above where it can kill person unintentionally by the pistol discharging due to weapon dropped, bumped, vibration. Their recommendation is "train in accordance with operator's manual." If this document is true, this is supposed to have been after the upgrade program that addressed the dropped issue.

This is followed by another C, pistol discharges due to slide ignites primer during closing, firing pin inertia.

There's also a multishot failure rated at C due to excessive firing pin inertia that can kill person unintentionally.

There's a accidental discharge due to striker mechanical failure rated E - improbable but it can kill person unintentionally.

I count 4 level 1 catastrophic of Level 3 Occasional likely to occur sometimes in the life of an item failure modes above that are connected with the design / manufacture of the gun.

The document does look similar to other Failure Mode and Effects Analysis documents I've seen from engineering documents although I've never paid much detailed attention to them. It was just courtesy information for me.

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:
C'mon, man, it's Alaska...tons of places to go shoot outside! You don't want to be breathing all that gunsmoke, anyway.

Seriously, though...it sucks you got put in that situation. On the other hand, absolutely nothing wrong with a new G20!

If you want to come up here in January and shoot outdoors, knock yourself out.

The only things wrong with are the annoyance, time and money of setting up a new carry gun.

quote:

Originally posted by Rey HRH:
The document does look similar to other Failure Mode and Effects Analysis documents I've seen from engineering documents although I've never paid much detailed attention to them. It was just courtesy information for me.

We do similar documents where I work as part of our quality assurance program. I suspect that Sig put that together as a contractual requirement to the U.S. Military. I personally don’t consider it to be a smoking gun (pun intended) like others have suggested.

quote:

Originally posted by Rey HRH:
There's a C below the above where it can kill person unintentionally by the pistol discharging due to weapon dropped, bumped, vibration. Their recommendation is "train in accordance with operator's manual." If this document is true, this is supposed to have been after the upgrade program that addressed the dropped issue.

You have to read the whole chart. That C is the starting point.

Reading further across the chart it says what Sig did to address it:

"The Firing mechanism of the P320 is designed to prevent release of the striker in a drop or during transportation. In case of a failure of the sear to striker interface, it has a redundant striker safety that blocks striker travel unless the trigger is pulled. The P320 will pass drop safety testing IAW ARPD-177. It will pass loose cargo testing with the safety on or off. The P320 has passed drop safety testing IAW TOP 3-2-045 and NATO STD AC225 D14 without a manual safety, however failed customer drop testing (notified 2/1)."

And because of what Sig did to address it, the likelihood of occurrence is now rated: E. According to the chart on page 3, E means "Improbable. So unlikely, it can be assumed occurrence may not be experienced in the life of an item" with .0001% chance of occurrence.

The next three examples you mentioned are rated F which according to the chart means those failure modes have been eliminated and have 0 chance of occurrence.

Not having ever seen a chart like this, the "firing pin inertia" among others makes it look boilerplate to me. That first column for occurrence doesn't mean this problem was identified in the P320 and then it was fixed. This should be obvious since the P320 doesn't have a firing pin and was never released without the striker lock.

I'd bet the first few columns are common for all handguns and not specific to the P320. Take the first line, accidental trigger pull. Nobody evaluated the P320 and suddenly said Holy Cow! Someone could accidentally pull the trigger and someone or someone else could get killed! You guys need to fix this! Instead, this is common to all handguns and the important part is the last set of columns which would be the manufacturer's response to how they designed the gun to alleviate the issue.

quote:

I'd bet the first few columns are common for all handguns and not specific to the P320. Take the first line, accidental trigger pull. Nobody evaluated the P320 and suddenly said Holy Cow! Someone could accidentally pull the trigger and someone or someone else could get killed! You guys need to fix this! Instead, this is common to all handguns and the important part is the last set of columns which would be the manufacturer's response to how they designed the gun to alleviate the issue.

I read that section the same way, those basic listed items would be common to any firearm, striker or not....

I imagine that Glock had to do a FMECA as part of their participation in the MHS contract. I'm sure it probably is similar. Would be interesting to see that as well.

Latest Sig video
https://youtu.be/2JXfmpSjNU8?si=vtPk0HhxyEOrvrnQ

[url=https://youtu.be/2JXfmpSjNU8?si=vtPk0HhxyEOrvrnQ]https://youtu.be/2JXfmpSjNU8?si=vtPk0HhxyEOrvrnQ[/url]

quote:

Originally posted by mrprovy:
Latest Sig video
https://youtu.be/2JXfmpSjNU8?si=vtPk0HhxyEOrvrnQ

quote:

Originally posted by 2000Z-71:
Well, here's my response to the current 320 situation. My local indoor range issued the statemeant that started with, "Out of an abundance of caution..." and banned the Sig 320 and XTen from being used at the range. Problem is the next closest indoor range is 6 hours away in Fairbanks.

I've got 2 XTens, an original 5" and a Comp. I've also got a lot invested in spare magazines, holsters, red dot sights, etc. Not much sense in carrying a firearm that I can't practice with. So now I get to start all over again breaking in a new pistol, experimenting with loads, equipping with a red dot and ordering holsters for.

Glock G20 Gen 5.

That is complete and utter BS. I’m sure any range has had more ADs from operator error than they’ve ever had, or will ever have, from P320s going off “by themselves”.

^^^1000%^^^
As evidenced by the holes in 99% of range walls/ceilings/overhangs


Btw...thank you nhracecraft for fixing the video

quote:

Originally posted by nhracecraft:

quote:

Originally posted by mrprovy:
Latest Sig video
https://youtu.be/2JXfmpSjNU8?si=vtPk0HhxyEOrvrnQ

I watched that video as well as the video in the description that focuses more on the 5 things that are needed to happen for the pin to hit the primer and discharge.

It seems a solid explanation. Their argument is that it's designed to fire only when the trigger is pulled rearward. Is there a scenario of cascading events that will cause the gun to discharge without the trigger being pressed?

^^ It would seem not considering that ALL of the Safety Mechanisms are mechanically interacting and would have to fail to function in concert to result in a P320 discharging without the trigger being pulled, let alone one secured in a holster!

I've got an open mind but...Until there is evidence to the contrary, and occurrences of such discharges can be replicated, it would seem unpossible!

quote:

Originally posted by mrprovy:
Latest Sig video
https://youtu.be/2JXfmpSjNU8?si=vtPk0HhxyEOrvrnQ

I watched that video as well as the video in the description that focuses more on the 5 things that are needed to happen for the pin to hit the primer and discharge.

It seems a solid explanation. Their argument is that it's designed to fire only when the trigger is pulled rearward. Is there a scenario of cascading events that will cause the gun to discharge without the trigger being pressed?



The gun in the holster is carried vertically.

What happens when the sear springs and/or the safety lever spring do not operate correctly?

So who is telling the truth here?

https://www.sigsauer.com/blog/p320-information

"DHS has never raised any safety concerns about the P320 and ICE has since extended their existing contract with SIG SAUER another two years."


https://apfs-cloud.dhs.gov/record/71330/public-print/

"Description: ICE/OFTP has a need for Glock 19 9mm pistols and equipment to support the Homeland Security Investigations (H.S.I.) and Enforcement Removal Operations (ERO) agents in the field. This purchase facilitates the conversion for the Agency (ICE) to a new duty weapon system . The delivery order will be placed against an existing IDIQ 70B06C19D00000007 administered by CBP. Per the Ordering Guide, no competition is required as this is a single award IDIQ vehicle and the awardee is Glock. No other vendors will receive the RFQ."

quote:

What happens when the sear springs and/or the safety lever spring do not operate correctly?

They would have to both fail at the same time to create an ND. And failed springs should be easily identifiable in the post-incident investigation. I've not seen any information that that has been discovered in any of the guns involved.

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:

quote:

What happens when the sear springs and/or the safety lever spring do not operate correctly?

They would have to both fail at the same time to create an ND. And failed springs should be easily identifiable in the post-incident investigation. I've not seen any information that that has been discovered in any of the guns involved.

They would both have to fail yes. But not at the same time.
The safety lever spring could be broken or missing for a long time without the user noticing.

^^ Regardless, BOTH would need to be in a failed condition at the same time in order for there to be a discharge without the Trigger being depressed.