It's disappointing the number of "gun people" who are on social media who, (such as that video deleted) without any solid evidence of what caused the problem as if it's absolutely proven it's the gun, and then publishing things like Hickock45 about the P320.

Many of them are just piling on to get clicks, I see at least 10 of them daily on X, some from people I follow, but the algorithm is sending me feeds from people all over on the P320.

As far as Hickock45, he admits he has a P320, never had a problem , it's never discharged on it's own, yet, backs the never carry, don't own one like it's the final nail in the coffin, and with the publicity, it might be.

The P320 may or may not have a problem, it could be that the gun that killed the AF man was improperly reassembled after cleaning, had aftermarket parts in it, or it could be something in the design.

We don't know, and yet we (gun industry) continue to pile on....

Sadly with all the piling on, IPDA, Agency removal, gun range bans, the P320 may go the way of the dodo, and it could be because of panic and hype. I'm not sure if they can recover from this.


https://x.com/DocStrangelove2/.../1950722592802734465

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Uhhh, he claimed it happened to the P365, he did not show that.

How do you mean? At 1:05 he showed a P365 doing the same thing.

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That said, the point of both that video and the one that was removed, seems to be (prove?) that if you pull the trigger 80+% through the travel (82.5% in the case of the P320) and then futz with the slide, pretty much any striker fired pistol will discharge. As the striker hook (located on the slide/upper receiver) is retained/released by the sear located in the lower receiver, it would seem that by design pretty much all striker fired pistols are intolerant of such manipulations. As such, the entire premise of such an analysis is completely flawed and does nothing to explain what's happening to holstered P320 Pistols.

The point is that if guns are going off by intentionally holding the trigger partway and manipulating the slide, it's one step closer to partially pressing then releasing the trigger, resulting in a persistent sear perch. From there the gun would be susceptible to slide jiggling. This was demonstrated in the video on the XDM, so such a thing is obviously possible. Also why I asked the video creator if he could reproduce the issue on an actual P320.

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Originally posted by Tom-R2:

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Originally posted by kkina:
^Good question. That's a hole in my GUT that I haven't figured out yet. Also, why the entire trigger bar doesn't return (or does it?) and the sear reset as well after releasing the trigger.

Something to do with the dead trigger condition that police department reported. Stacked tolerances, internal contamination? I wonder how many slices in this swiss cheese model.

One of the things I did with ours was to replace the trigger return spring that hangs down from the rear of the FCU with one that is 10% firmer. It is, according to the manufacturer, designed to more firmly reset the trigger/trigger bar. The spec sheet that comes with it says that it adds about 1# more to the trigger pull, but I really can't tell much if any difference.

That is very interesting. What if the fix for the 320 consists of only 1. Replacing with a stronger trigger return spring, 2. Adding a tab safety to the trigger, and 3. tightening up the rail to slide fit.

How 'bout it, Sig?

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Originally posted by kkina:

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Uhhh, he claimed it happened to the P365, he did not show that.

How do you mean? At 1:05 he showed a P365 doing the same thing.

Yeah, sorry about that. I rewatched that video for like the fifth time and noticed that when they were spinning around they changed out the P320 for the P365. I had already edited my post to remove the reference to the P365 several minutes before you posted.

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That is very interesting. What if the fix for the 320 consists of only 1. Replacing with a stronger trigger return spring, 2. Adding a tab safety to the trigger, and 3. tightening up the rail to slide fit.

How 'bout it, Sig?

Stronger spring, OK
Tricky trigger, pretty cheap.

Rail to slide fit is a manufacturing change, going to be tough to do as a repair or upgrade.

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Originally posted by nhracecraft:

quote:

Originally posted by kkina:

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Uhhh, he claimed it happened to the P365, he did not show that.

How do you mean? At 1:05 he showed a P365 doing the same thing.

Yeah, sorry about that. I rewatched that video for like the fifth time and noticed that when they were spinning around they changed out the P320 for the P365. I had already edited my post to remove the reference to the P365 several minutes before you posted.

No problem. I actually did that too the first time I watched . The editing was a little tight on that video.

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Originally posted by Jim Watson:

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That is very interesting. What if the fix for the 320 consists of only 1. Replacing with a stronger trigger return spring, 2. Adding a tab safety to the trigger, and 3. tightening up the rail to slide fit.

How 'bout it, Sig?

Stronger spring, OK
Tricky trigger, pretty cheap.

Rail to slide fit is a manufacturing change, going to be tough to do as a repair or upgrade.

Yes, agree completely. I would say do the spring and trigger as a retro, then going forward use redesigned rails on all new units going out.

I would guess that just doing a spring+trigger upgrade might prevent most if not all future occurrences. The slide mod would just be an additional layer of safety, and an upgrade to the pistol's overall quality level.

Wow, a spring+trigger could even be offered as a user-installable kit. Not expensive even (although I think Sig should be the one paying).

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Originally posted by kkina:... What if the fix for the 320 consists of only 1. ...

Pimp slapping the ever-loving shit out of numbnuts that finger bang the trigger while madly wrestling the slide like Steve Erwin and an angry croc?

Meanwhile, maybe let SIG and folks like Bruce Gray do legitimate research and testing and discover what is going on and options to correct it?

Or did I miss the window to get my torch and pitchfork?

Bruce is vastly knowledgeable but also deeply invested in the model. Has he changed his position from when he said:
"every single person at Grayguns still has faith that a SIG P320 cannot fire without the trigger being acted on by something."

Technically, he (and for that matter Sig) is correct. It does take a trigger pull. However:

1. It's too easy to pull the trigger inadvertently, due to the lack of a tab safety.

2. In the case of UDs, the discharge is delayed. First, a partial trigger press, but no immediate discharge. Later, jostling of the slide causes the striker to drop.


Maybe we should call the second one a DD (Delayed Discharge).

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Originally posted by Jim Watson:
Rail to slide fit is a manufacturing change, going to be tough to do as a repair or upgrade.

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Originally posted by Jim Watson:
Bruce is vastly knowledgeable but also deeply invested in the model. Has he changed his position from when he said:
"every single person at Grayguns still has faith that a SIG P320 cannot fire without the trigger being acted on by something."

He did back in May. Copies of the message, link to the video, and discussion are in this thread. Basically, if you install a take down safety lever from a 45/10mm P320 into a 9/40/357 P320, incorrectly install the slide, and remove or otherwise disable the striker safety lock, then the gun can fire without pulling the trigger. Link

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Originally posted by sigmonkey:

quote:

Originally posted by kkina:... What if the fix for the 320 consists of only 1. ...

Pimp slapping the ever-loving shit out of numbnuts that finger bang the trigger while madly wrestling the slide like Steve Erwin and an angry croc?

Meanwhile, maybe let SIG and folks like Bruce Gray do legitimate research and testing and discover what is going on and options to correct it?

Or did I miss the window to get my torch and pitchfork?

Maybe that's why Safariland is redesigning their ALS holster.

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Originally posted by HRK:

We don't know, and yet we (gun industry) continue to pile on....

Sadly with all the piling on, IPDA, Agency removal, gun range bans, the P320 may go the way of the dodo, and it could be because of panic and hype. I'm not sure if they can recover from this.

We certainly didn't get here overnight. These AD reports have been circulating for several years now. With one example after another combined with events in the last few weeks, it have become too much to ignore for many of these organizations that have to protect themselves for lawsuits.

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Originally posted by rscalzo:

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Originally posted by sigmonkey:

Or did I miss the window to get my torch and pitchfork?

Maybe that's why Safariland is redesigning their ALS holster.

Let’s hope a pitchfork mounted torch will finally fit properly.

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Originally posted by rscalzo:


Maybe that's why Safariland is redesigning their ALS holster.

Redesigning the ALS for the P320 only?
If so, what is it about the P320 that the best holster makers in the world seem to have a problem getting it right?

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Originally posted by rscalzo:


Maybe that's why Safariland is redesigning their ALS holster.

Nothing against Safariland holsters, the ALS line, or Safariland in general… It IS one of the most popular brands out there.
But I’ve seen videos with other holsters and a “Bang” from the P320.

Is it a deflection?
*“It’s not our fault, we told you! It’s the holster maker!!!”
Is it actually part of the problem?
*Any type of holster that comes near the trigger/trigger pin/ puts pressure on the slide… (or whatever reason) AND THE P320 is bad!”
Or are we back to square one, and the P320 is just a messed up design?

quote:

Originally posted by kkina:
Technically, he (and for that matter Sig) is correct. It does take a trigger pull. However:

1. It's too easy to pull the trigger inadvertently, due to the lack of a tab safety.

2. In the case of UDs, the discharge is delayed. First, a partial trigger press, but no immediate discharge. Later, jostling of the slide causes the striker to drop.

People keep saying that, BUT...Just for the record:

Item 1 is NOT a defect, and...
Item 2 is simply conjecture being promulgated as fact. NOBODY has been able to identify exactly what is happening to holstered P320 Pistols.

In the meantime, it seems the entire weight of the internet, incited into a frenzy by an ever growing group of attention seeking self-appointed experts on YouTube, seems to be holding SIG's head under water demanding they admit there's a problem, that again, NOBODY seems to be able to identify!

Disagree on number 1. It is a defect.

Number 2: I'm not stating it as a fact. It is a theory, and I have never said anything to the contrary.

How can it be said there's no problem, that it's just attention-seeking, when people are shooting themselves?

^^ I didn't say there was NO problem/issue, just that NOBODY seems to be able to identify what's occurring. Minds are certainly made up though!

What we really need are verifiable facts and evidence, along with tests that have repeatable outcomes. To that end, I'm eagerly awaiting to hear what Bruce Gray @ GrayGuns has been able to determine. Hopefully then we'll get some real answers on this!