In response to the guy pulling the trigger slightly or so and pinching the slide… I have a P320 with x trigger and I cannot get the thing to release the firing pin without pulling the trigger through the wall. I can pull it to the wall and pinch the front and back of the slide, and beat the shit out of the gun sorry my hand while the trigger is
pressed to the wall, yet nothing happens until I pull the trigger through the wall and it breaks…

This coupled with what I’ve seen my agency carry and the fact we’ve had a “UD” in our parking lot and not sued SIG, we changed holsters instead… Which I agree with considering I’ve seen the stupid people wear with the trigger clearly visible wile standing next to officers.
One of my buddies graduated the academy as a marginal gun enthusiast and mentioned his concern with his Safariland duty holster as he could easily slide a finger down and pull the trigger whilst the gun being fully seated in his holster.

The Flim-Flam man is always amongst us.

At this point, too many people are trying to make a name, fame and/or fortune from this hot mess.

I am skeptical. For all I know, he (the guy pulling the trigger slightly or so and pinching the slide) could have installed the "Sig provided self upgrade parts" incorrectly, and I notice he turns the screw in 5 times (reading lips) and also he does not use the calipers correctly/consistently and screwed up the math several times.

And a few times he didn't get the "bang" he wanted, he turns the screw in a turn or two until he does.

Certainly not gaining any confidence in his mastery of scientific method.

I'm still with Pogo on this one.

quote:

Originally posted by sigmonkey:
The Flim-Flam man is always amongst us.

At this point, too many people are trying to make a name, fame and/or fortune from this hot mess.

I am skeptical. For all I know, he (the guy pulling the trigger slightly or so and pinching the slide) could have installed the "Sig provided self upgrade parts" incorrectly, and I notice he turns the screw in 5 times (reading lips) and also he does not use the calipers correctly/consistently and screwed up the math several times.

And a few times he didn't get the "bang" he wanted, he turns the screw in a turn or two until he does.

Certainly not gaining any confidence in his mastery of scientific method.

I'm still with Pogo on this one.

I think people need to stop watching videos and just do what they’re doing. I did and I could not for the life of me replicate their bullshit. Fuck the screw and a slight trigger pull, I took the trigger to the wall and pinched/beat the gun with my hand from all angles to get their result… only I didn’t.

Agreed.

The guy in the video I mentioned, Bruce Gray's video and the one trapper posted are the only videos I have watched.

I have seen a ton of them pop up in "suggestions" after watching them. (Al Gore Rhythms)

I have no interest in adding any "clicks/views" or whatever to them.
Such are lower than the crap bottom feeders consume.

The truth will come out, but damage will be far and wide, and not only Sig being affected.

Acquaintance of mine asked me to look at his son’s P320 over the weekend. I’m a former 320 armorer (expired a few months ago) and his son claimed his striker would drop with a partial press of the trigger and slide manipulation.

I checked it out after explaining to him that I am no longer servicing P320s and sure enough, it would drop the striker with a partial press. I didn’t use a screw or anything and ensured I wasn’t pressing the trigger inadvertently.

I didn’t have any primed 9mm cases so I don’t know if the striker safety block was catching it. I haven’t checked my personal P320 yet as it has an Apex trigger and trigger bar.

I am interested in finding out how many uncommanded discharges have occurred with aftermarket performance trigger parts. While I am really not a fan of the design and do believe that it is suboptimal, I think there’s a high likelihood that the parts that SIG is using are part of the problem. Performance trigger parts are generally made of tool steel and are held to very high tolerances. I wonder if these ledges that are being observed along with other issues is more a remnant of poor metallurgy from SIG cheaping out on parts and materials, or on dimensions that aren’t quite perfect. It might just be that this design is completely intolerant of anything less than top notch metallurgy and incredibly precise dimensioning of parts, but the design itself could be saved through much more expensive manufacturing techniques.

There is zero chance of getting "scientific" at this point. Once the internet declared fair game on the 320 all the normal constraints went away.

To figure out accurate numbers you would have to have accurate data. You would have to be able to separate the guys who literally pulled the trigger and called it uncommanded. The guys who had the wrong holster. The guys who installed premium or otherwise parts incorrectly.

None of that data is available. Every single moron who had a negligent discharge is thanking the heavens that their carry gun is a 320 because they can claim it just went off and as far as the interweb is concerned, yep 320's do that.

The Air Force story is a huge example of that. Gun is just sitting there for a huge chunk of time while the guy removes his plate carrier, takes a dump, changes his clothes, makes a PBJ, then and only then he walks over to his desk and the gun shoots him. The internet bought that entire story with absolutely no actual evidence. The AF banned the gun in their security forces. Was that justified? Well certainly not with the information that has been provided. Maybe they have footage of it happening exactly the way described and it is the "spontaneous shooting" the stories describe. Well fuck, if you have that kind of evidence which so far has been widely lacking in this drama then for the safety of everyone let us all know (we don't have to see the video but an AF General describing it would suffice).

I bet Bruce is more correct than anybody else regarding these events.

quote:

Once the internet declared fair game on the 320 all the normal constraints went away.

Which is kind of why the P320 needs to become the “new and improved with better optics mounting and a “duty trigger option” or whatever P330 or P226PD (polymer duty) or some such because no matter the issue/outcome the name is tainted.

quote:

Originally posted by Lt CHEG:
I am interested in finding out how many uncommanded discharges have occurred with aftermarket performance trigger parts. While I am really not a fan of the design and do believe that it is suboptimal, I think there’s a high likelihood that the parts that SIG is using are part of the problem. Performance trigger parts are generally made of tool steel and are held to very high tolerances. I wonder if these ledges that are being observed along with other issues is more a remnant of poor metallurgy from SIG cheaping out on parts and materials, or on dimensions that aren’t quite perfect. It might just be that this design is completely intolerant of anything less than top notch metallurgy and incredibly precise dimensioning of parts, but the design itself could be saved through much more expensive manufacturing techniques.

I have Gray guns trigger in every one of my P320 that I shoot competitively. That's five 320's.

USPSA and PCSL 2 Gun requires significant movement including rolling on the ground. NEVER an issue.

Every high end 320 X5 in various models used as retail and test guns in the Sig SEC have a GG trigger installed. the retails by a slew of customers of varying experience levels have never resulted in ONE issue.

As far as your "more expensive manufacturing techniques" care to tell us what you'd improve based on your knowledge of their current techniques? I'm guessing that you must be familiar with their current manufacturing based on personal knowledge? Is the fact that they use modern high end machinery not suitable?

quote:

Originally posted by cslinger:

quote:

Once the internet declared fair game on the 320 all the normal constraints went away.

Which is kind of why the P320 needs to become the “new and improved with better optics mounting and a “duty trigger option” or whatever P330 or P226PD (polymer duty) or some such because no matter the issue/outcome the name is tainted.

P320, P321 whatever it takes.

Since ICE seems to be transitioning to the Glock 19 fairly quickly, do they have previous experience with it?

https://www.thearmorylife.com/...se-of-sig-320.23310/

Acting with some trepidation, I ordered a gold Agency Arms trigger which has the central motion blocking lever like the Glock for my custom P320. Found at discount on eBay.

I liked the Grayguns mechanism video posted in this thread. I especially appreciated the admonition to leave the trigger pretravel as is. I have a custom trigger with two adjustment screws in its plastic bag, which is a fine location for it.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: 4MUL8R,

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
To figure out accurate numbers you would have to have accurate data. You would have to be able to separate the guys who literally pulled the trigger and called it uncommanded. The guys who had the wrong holster. The guys who installed premium or otherwise parts incorrectly.

None of that data is available.

I believe there’s a lot of data available in the court cases. I only looked at one, and not completely at that, but I found enough information in the exhibits to be satisfied that the court found in SIG’s favor based on solid evidence.

I didn’t go through the entire case because there’s a lot there, most of it is boring, and who has time for that? I suspect that’s why the influencers haven’t gone to the trouble of compiling facts based on the evidence presented in these court cases.

I bet Bruce Gray has a good understanding what these court cases were able to show/not show as to the mechanics of what the P320 is capable of vs what was claimed in each case. I look forward to his videos.

quote:

Originally posted by rscalzo:

I have Gray guns trigger in every one of my P320 that I shoot competitively. That's five 320's.

USPSA and PCSL 2 Gun requires significant movement including rolling on the ground. NEVER an issue.

Every high end 320 X5 in various models used as retail and test guns in the Sig SEC have a GG trigger installed. the retails by a slew of customers of varying experience levels have never resulted in ONE issue.

As far as your "more expensive manufacturing techniques" care to tell us what you'd improve based on your knowledge of their current techniques? I'm guessing that you must be familiar with their current manufacturing based on personal knowledge? Is the fact that they use modern high end machinery not suitable?

I’m assuming you aren’t aware of any problems with guns used or sold at the SIG SEC that were equipped with GG triggers? That would be a good data point to be able to demonstrate that people aren’t having issues with GG triggers.

I’m quite familiar with high tech manufacturing methods. Even throughout my LE career, I’ve remained current on engineering methods and have undergraduate and graduate degrees in engineering so my knowledge base is likely higher than that of a typical “man on the street.” I have direct knowledge of SIG’s manufacturing methods after having toured their operation in Exeter and Newington. It’s been a couple years but it was after the awarding of the M17 and M18 pistol contracts and manufacturing of those pistols was well underway. I’m not about to discuss specifics of SIG’s manufacturing operations so as not to violate any NDA I completed.

As for what I mean by more expensive production methods, the main one I would use is to only allow the utilization of heat treated tool steel for the assembly of fire control parts. Any sear engagement surfaces would be finished via wire EDM methods. Fire control components would be forged and machined, not manufactured via MIM. Due to the critical importance of these parts to the safety of the P320 mechanisms, I also believe that these parts should be manufactured in-house and not obtained by third party manufacturers. SIG used to make their fire control components in-house when only their classic lineup was available so this is certainly achievable, it would just cost a bunch more.

No major manufacturer uses tool steel wire EDM parts in sub $1000 pistols that I am aware of. It's just too expensive.

Casting, forging, MIM, and stamping are the cost effective processes. At a tech day with my company and BASF (they provide metal powders) I saw 3D printed 1911 small parts in the examples. Most people there probably didn't realize what they were which was amusing to me. Printing a rack of 100's of sears or hammers in a single run in a large metal 3D printer can be cost effective.

Even Sig's X5 adjustable triggers have parts made using cost effective methods, and they are just assembled into the gun, not fitted like 1911 parts are in a $2K+ gun.

MIM is the reason we have guns like the P365 with complex small parts. Some of the parts just can't be made cost effectively with other methods.

Glock fire control parts are mostly inexpensive stamped steel and we are not seeing problems with Glocks. The parts are designed, toleranced, and manufactured appropriately for the functional requirements. Glock will always win on cost because the guns are so simple and easy to manufacture. That's why we are seeing so many Glock clones coming out.

But no matter what the production method and material, you still have to follow process and get good parts. It always comes down to quality. If Sig's suppliers or internal processes are letting occasional bag parts slip through, like 1:10,0000 then they need to solve that problem. I would like to hear Sig's explanation for the wear seen on the MSP M18 parts. Could be due to the FCU holes being drilled at a slight angle - which means the small parts could be fine and the stamped drilled FCU housing is the problem. FCU on the P365 is MIM, so perhaps Sig could move to MIM for the P320 as well. Would cost a lot in tooling and not be retrofittable except for complete replacement.

The quality of the parts in a standalone gold P320 FCU I just looked at are very good. But this one has a bit of a hitch when you rotate the takedown lever that you kind of have to force it past, versus all the other ones I have (9 or so). So there IS variation in something.

quote:

sure enough, it would drop the striker with a partial press.

Interesting. Wondering if you kept the trigger partially depressed, or did you release it before jiggling the slide?

Nothing wrong with MIM parts in general. Just about everybody uses some of them.

MIM is used widely, although it tends to be a sore subject among the 1911 crowd.

quote:

Originally posted by Dawes:
MIM is used widely, although it tends to be a sore subject among the 1911 crowd.

The difference is designing a part around the strengths of a MIM part vs making a MIM part to the exact size of a tool steel part and expecting to work the same. Just like a polymer AR lower, you can make it work, but it won't be a perfect 1:1 copy.

quote:

Originally posted by kkina:

quote:

sure enough, it would drop the striker with a partial press.

Interesting. Wondering if you kept the trigger partially depressed, or did you release it before jiggling the slide?

Regardless, I'm gonna go out on a limb and state that 'jiggling of the slide' is NOT something that happens on a loaded P320 with a fully loaded magazine inserted.