SIG can email bomb the world with more of their explanations and hand wringing, and it will do nothing to restore public trust in the P320. It’s not as much the 320 mechanism that the people no longer have confidence in, it’s the belief that SIG will do the right thing and put safety first and foremost that the public has lost confidence in. I also find that press release from SIG about ICE renewing their contract to be more than a little slimy. It says that the contract was renewed but the contract is for the ability to purchase pistols at a particular price and spec, not an agreement to actually purchase anything. Casting doubt on the veracity of the ICE memo is also a bit slimy as there are absolutely members of that organization that will be turning in their 320 pistols and getting Glock 19 pistols. That’s a fact according to some of my contacts with HSI. The tide has turned and the shooting public is insisting upon their pound of flesh from SIG. This email campaign will not make things right between SIG and the shooting public.
“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.”
July 29, 2025, 07:12 PM
Terminator
It’s getting harder to blow these incidents off as fake with the numbers of complaints and video that support their claims. It all Comes out in the end and SIG is receiving Irreparably damage to their reputation.
July 29, 2025, 08:02 PM
hrcjon
I'm sure the engineering can ultimately figure out what is the issue if they want to. And fix it if they want to. But what, at the moment, I find completely brain dead is that Sig shows nothing about the issue on the website or social media that I can see. Did I miss it somewhere? The 320 page looks completely normal propaganda (selected by everybody). Why on earth wouldn't you at least acknowledge the controversy. Seems to be totally backward to me.
“So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.”
July 29, 2025, 08:29 PM
Rusty_SWO
quote:
Originally posted by rscalzo: As far as your "more expensive manufacturing techniques" care to tell us what you'd improve based on your knowledge of their current techniques? I'm guessing that you must be familiar with their current manufacturing based on personal knowledge? Is the fact that they use modern high end machinery not suitable?
I’m an engineer working in manufacturing. My background is in machinery design, and I’ve done quite a lot of molded parts, bent sheet metal parts, and machined parts.
I have *never* specified tolerances of +.002”/-.004” on a bent sheet metal part.
Why?
Because I know there’s NFW I’m going to actually achieve them.
And guess what? Sig didn’t achieve them either.
Incidentally, the frame rails being shaped like that (in other words, both undersized and not even close to square) could quite easily account for a lot of the so-called “shake-awake” behavior.
Mine measures exactly the same, by the way.
July 29, 2025, 08:33 PM
Lt CHEG
quote:
Originally posted by hrcjon: I'm sure the engineering can ultimately figure out what is the issue if they want to. And fix it if they want to. But what, at the moment, I find completely brain dead is that Sig shows nothing about the issue on the website or social media that I can see. Did I miss it somewhere? The 320 page looks completely normal propaganda (selected by everybody). Why on earth wouldn't you at least acknowledge the controversy. Seems to be totally backward to me.
I actually give SIG the benefit of the doubt on this. I’m not sure that anyone knows what the problem or possibly problems are. There’s a lot of variables in play. The 320 is also probably the most complicated operating system out there right now and there’s a lot of areas where a problem could rear its head, so I can 100% believe that any problem or problem is not clear cut. I absolutely believe that SIG is capable of making great, high quality stuff, but the way they’ve handled this whole situation has left a lot of bad feelings about company management, far more than company engineering.
“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.”
July 29, 2025, 08:34 PM
sigfreund
I just received an email from SIG about the issue that specifically denies the claims that:
1. The Michigan State Police stopped issuing the pistol after the FBI report. 2. That DHS/ICE discontinued use of the pistol. 3. That the US military forces ordered a halt to use of the M17 and M18 pistols. According to the email, “some” Air Force units have discontinued its use pending the results of the investigation of the fatal accident.
Those statements should be easy to verify if true and are based on anything other than Internet reports.
The email includes a link to an excellent video demonstrating and explaining the firing mechanism of the P320:
“I can’t give you brains, but I can give you a diploma.” — The Wizard of Oz
July 29, 2025, 08:35 PM
RogueJSK
Here's the complete text of Sig's latest email message:
quote:
P320 Safety Information
Recently, there have been a number of reports and claims regarding the safety of the P320 pistol and its use by the U.S. Military and law enforcement agencies. We understand you may have questions. We want to address your concerns and provide you with full, complete, and accurate information.
SIG SAUER has ALWAYS and will continue to put the safety and security of the U.S. Military, the law enforcement community, our consumers, and the public first. To this end, we want to be sure concerned citizens have access to complete facts.
The P320 pistol is one of the safest, most advanced pistols in the world -meeting and exceeding all industry safety standards. Its design has been thoroughly tested and validated by the U.S. Military and law enforcement agencies at the federal, state and local levels. In addition, the P320 has been rigorously tested, and is currently in use by militaries and law enforcement agencies around the world.
FBI Testing and Report
A recently publicized internal report from the FBI’s Ballistic Research Facility (BRF) created some confusion and raised questions about the safety of the P320. The FBI prepared this report for the Michigan State Police after an officer was involved in an accidental discharge. SIG SAUER engineers met with the FBI and Michigan State Police on several occasions to review the report and the incident. Ultimately, the FBI conducted a more detailed, repeatable, and comprehensive battery of testing using compatible equipment. The subsequent testing resulted in zero instances of failures and the Michigan State Police are now confidently issuing officers P320 based pistols: https://trk.shoot.sigsauer.com...QFZXBQ320XSDM6VM5D_5
The FBI BRF have yet to make any official claims or statements regarding the safety of the P320 pistol or any of its variants. However, we are urging the FBI BRF and FBI Director Kash Patel to release a full and complete testing and evaluation report on their updated P320 safety testing.
Department of Homeland Security
An internal memo from the Department of Homeland Security (DHS)/ U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) was recently posted online stating the agency was halting its use of the P320. Many online media outlets immediately sought to attribute this to the above referenced FBI BRF report, which is incorrect. DHS has never raised any safety concerns about the P320 and ICE has since extended their existing contract with SIG SAUER another two years. Since DHS has yet to comment publicly correcting their improperly leaked memo, or any statements questioning the safety of the P320, we are now urging ICE to release all information on P320 testing. SIG SAUER is honored to continue aiding ICE in their mission to protect America: https://trk.shoot.sigsauer.com...QFZXBQ320XSDM6VM5D_6
U.S. Air Force M18
There was a recent tragic incident at F.E. Warren Air Force Base in Wyoming which resulted in the death of an Airman. Because the incident involved the discharge of a (P320 based) M18 pistol, the Air Force is actively conducting an evaluation of M18 pistols within the specific Command where the incident happened. This cautionary step is standard procedure. We proactively offered assistance to the U.S. military as they investigate the incident. Contrary to several online reports, (P320 based) M17 and M18 pistols remain on active duty with all branches of the U.S. Military, including the U.S. Air Force, defending freedom around the world. https://trk.shoot.sigsauer.com...QFZXBQ320XSDM6VM5D_7
We have absolute confidence in the U.S. Military’s ability to conduct a thorough investigation and report their findings. As we learn more information about the investigation, we will continue to provide updated information.
P320 Range and Training Bans
Following several of these inaccurate reports, a number of ranges, training providers, and training facilities made the reactionary decision to ban the P320 and its use in their facilities. We are actively working to provide these individuals with accurate information along with a detailed understanding of the P320 and its safety features. If you are impacted by a P320 range or a training provider ban, we urge you to reach out to SIG CUSTOMER SERVICE: 603-610-3000 Option 1 or send a message here: https://trk.shoot.sigsauer.com...QFZXBQ320XSDM6VM5D_8 so we can clarify any misinformation and provide the truth.
The P320 CANNOT, under any circumstances, discharge without the trigger first being moved to the rear. This has been verified through exhaustive testing by SIG SAUER engineers, the U.S. Military, several major federal and state law enforcement agencies, and independent laboratories. This video provides a detailed view into all of the various safety features of the P320 and provides a detailed explanation of how the safety system works: https://trk.shoot.sigsauer.com...QFZXBQ320XSDM6VM5D_9
As with any gun, the P320 will discharge if the trigger is pulled to the rear. Accordingly, SIG SAUER continues to remind its customers, employees, and the public to employ all safe gun-handling practices as spelled out in detail in our product manuals. The SIG SAUER Academy remains a resource to customers, employees, and the public in offering various firearms safety courses.
We respect the public’s concern and are actively working to provide as much information as possible. We sincerely thank you for your continued support of SIG SAUER and urge anyone with additional questions or concerns regarding the P320 and/or safe firearms handling to reach out to our customer service team.
If Some is Good, and More is Better.....then Too Much, is Just Enough !! Trump 47....Making America Great Again! "May Almighty God bless the United States of America" - parabellum 7/26/20 Live Free or Die!
July 29, 2025, 09:56 PM
Blackwater
I thought Sig said the holsters were the problem. Grain of salt.
Joe Back in Tx.
July 29, 2025, 10:03 PM
kkina
quote:
Incidentally, the frame rails being shaped like that (in other words, both undersized and not even close to square) could quite easily account for a lot of the so-called “shake-awake” behavior.
Wyoming Gun Project mentions just that at the end of his followup 320 video...
Interesting how this never happened to the 14 m17s we were carrying when my team and I left Afghanistan in Aug 2021. We shot them a lot pre deployment because new system and I had more ammo allocation than some battalions so you would think the m17s would have died and we carried one in chamber. The only thing we did was replace the recoil spring before we went down range because it’s a wear item we could replace.
If I had not just retired I would be going over my teams m17s because I think this is more of a compact p320/m18 issue because of maybe its parts wear issue like my gen3 Glock 19s vs my one Glock 34. I sold My compact p320s to a friend and bought 6 p365 variants. I like Them and have ran them hard in competitions and the like. I’ve been wanting to add a safety to my tacops and macro because I have 3 other p365 have safeties one xl that is mischief machine but the only thing I did was get a new trigger return spring kind of like how 1911 guys buy a new 1911 and replace them with wolff or 10-8 springs. I added The +10 spring.
I actually Liked the pre voluntary recall p320 the best when I had it and the only issue was the whole odd angle it had to be to go off. Sometimes trying to fix one issue will result in other issues.
I wonder if the X frame that was used for some FMS m17/18 builds might ironically rectify the p320/m18 frame. This was an question I brought up with the two competition shooters that I train with on at times when not doing dad stuff, and they said it “feels” like the lockup is better but they do not know.
Lastly i got Some newish us made primers to replicate a load I have been using because it was the same brand and the primers are softer than most of the small pistols primers I had ordered pre covid. So the dragging/indention issue we had seen on some ammo that did not go off might be a primer lot change due to material cost.
So we have parts wear out, softer primer, and maybe a frame being too loose.
July 30, 2025, 07:01 AM
Rusty_SWO
quote:
Originally posted by kkina: Wyoming Gun Project mentions just that at the end of his followup 320 video...
Yeah, I talked to him about it yesterday before he put that up. At some point he’s going to measure the frame rails on his 320’s and get back to me. I’m trying to compile a list of measurements to get a sense of what’s going on there.
July 30, 2025, 07:45 AM
trapper189
Wouldn’t partially pulling the trigger disengage the striker safety block and engage the sear enough to prevent it from moving thus render the secondary sear notch incapable of catching the striker? The first and second parts are by design so the gun can go bang when the trigger pull is finished.
Since the trigger is being pulled, this test proves nothing as far as the P320 supposedly just going off without the trigger being pulled.
I’m not sure what situation where the gun going off because its operator partially pulled the trigger then giggled the slide would be an issue. Is anybody doing that?
July 30, 2025, 07:56 AM
dan_h
Like others have posted, I also received the recent email from SIG regarding these incidents. However, what is really 'telling' to me is that the SIG Authorized Dealers I've asked will not take P320s in on trade for other guns (even other SIGs). So, SIG Corporate needs to communicate something to their dealers (protection against future lawsuits, etc.) to alleviate their dealer's concerns. If I could trade my P320 in for the (much more expensive) new SIG P226 carry I'd do it in a heartbeat! (especially the SAO model )
July 30, 2025, 08:15 AM
trapper189
The dealer was also a defendant in the one lawsuit I looked at. That’s the problem for dealers. SIG may have the money to defend itself, but I’d guess most dealers don’t.
July 30, 2025, 09:22 AM
SigSentry
After a couple videos, updated videos, and overall observations, amidst red herrings scenarios (uncommanded discharge claims to cover for actual human caused NDs), the seemingly less-than robustness of the seer engagement and slide to frame fit, in addition to the trigger take-up disabling the FP block, and the fact that holsters are somehow involved, I would speculate that the width of the trigger (as was mentioned in a video) being close enough to the width of the trigger guard, may interfere with the retention characteristics of a kydex holster where the take-up is achieved when holstered. After all, if the FP block is not deactivated, then while the seer may slip, no discharge will occur. So, thinner trigger? Sometimes it's the simplest things. I will now take off my Richard Feynman hat.
July 30, 2025, 10:29 AM
trickedtrix
seems like smoke, there's fire...
I don't fault any range or public safety agency from banning 320's until this is sorted out
I have a full size 320 .45 i bought at release, sent it in for the voluntary "upgrade" when that happened
Ive never carried the pistol nor stored it loaded, or ever had it in a holster - guess i should rack it and check it every few days to see if it fired...
*Handguns are fine, Shotguns are final
July 30, 2025, 11:13 AM
DirectDrive
quote:
Originally posted by Rusty_SWO:
quote:
Originally posted by rscalzo: As far as your "more expensive manufacturing techniques" care to tell us what you'd improve based on your knowledge of their current techniques? I'm guessing that you must be familiar with their current manufacturing based on personal knowledge? Is the fact that they use modern high end machinery not suitable?
I’m an engineer working in manufacturing. My background is in machinery design, and I’ve done quite a lot of molded parts, bent sheet metal parts, and machined parts.
I have *never* specified tolerances of +.002”/-.004” on a bent sheet metal part.
Why?
Because I know there’s NFW I’m going to actually achieve them.
And guess what? Sig didn’t achieve them either.
Incidentally, the frame rails being shaped like that (in other words, both undersized and not even close to square) could quite easily account for a lot of the so-called “shake-awake” behavior.
Mine measures exactly the same, by the way.
Great post. Seems like the FCU blank could have the rail sections made longer and then the outboard rail ends machined to a tighter tolerance. Adds cost of course.
One drawback with the FCU concept is that the rails can't be spaced very far apart. This magnifies sloppy rail fitment. IIRC, Glock, with their cast in frame rails had a problem with spacing and ultimately increased spacing to control frame flex. SIG should look at tightening up those slides/rails.
July 30, 2025, 11:33 AM
Rusty_SWO
quote:
Originally posted by DirectDrive: Seems like the FCU blank could have the rail sections made longer and then the outboard rail ends machined to a tighter tolerance. Adds cost of course.
That would resolve the length, but I think the current too-short-ness is a result not hitting the target angle. If they could actually hit 90 degrees, I expect the rails would have the correct width.
July 30, 2025, 12:04 PM
tbgb50
If one guy in Wyoming can at least raise some questions, I'm sure SIG with engineering teams, production managers and assembly employees know and have known more than they are saying.They also know how to fix the P320 but have chosen to ignore any problems.
SIG denies and obfuscates with the latest email a good example. For example citing "rigorous testing" by the military, when they cut the testing short is misleading at best, likely a lie.
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