quote:

Originally posted by kidcop:

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:
He has to "succeed" in Ukraine and he knows it.

Which is precisely why we and Europe as a whole need to put a stop to it right now.

What if Putin does succeed then what happens?

Why do we need to have Europe stop it?

1. WE > don't have any strategic interest in Ukraine, none.
2. Europe has more of a security and economic interest but mostly why they don't want Ukraine in NATO because they are largely pussies and don't want to anything or invest any blood or treasure to protect.
Furthermore they aka Europe NATO would assume the US would pay most of that price.

Mr Potato Head just stated we (the US) are a net exporter of petroleum and then stated we are cutting off imports from Russia.

Let that sink in for a moment....

Which was the lie - we are a net exporter or, we are importing Russian oil??

I don't know that Putin is dumb enough to send his pilots up if NATO is enforcing a no-fly zone. That would be just asking for an escalation that neither he nor anyone else wants.

I'm with kidcop here and believe that NATO needs to stand up and say, "Enough". At the very least, let's have a fair fight.

More often than not these days, I'm reminded of the quote misattributed to Edmund Burke, "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing". We (us, NATO, Ukraine) are the "good men", here...for all of our warts, and we must stop evil. It will not stop itself. Putting an end to the killing of these innocent people is the right and moral thing to do, IMO.

We sent millions of men to defend Europe 80 years ago and it was the right thing to do then. Everyone lauds that action as being a great thing. Why not now?

quote:

Originally posted by LS1 GTO:
Mr Potato Head just stated we (the US) are a net exporter of petroleum and then stated we are cutting off imports from Russia.

Let that sink in for a moment....

Which was the lie - we are a net exporter or, we are importing Russian oil??

Not defending Biden’s intellect in general but it is possible for both statements to be true. Just because someone in the US is importing Russian oil doesn’t mean someone else in the US isn’t producing and exporting a greater amount out of the country.

quote:

Originally posted by LS1 GTO:
Mr Potato Head just stated we (the US) are a net exporter of petroleum and then stated we are cutting off imports from Russia.

Let that sink in for a moment....

Which was the lie - we are a net exporter or, we are importing Russian oil??

Both are true.

2020 was the first year we became a net exporter of petroleum.

However, every year we both export and import crude and refined petroleum. Why? Supply timing, futures contract pricing, weather, logistics.

Of the petroleum we import, close to 10% comes from Russia.

I believe Putin will not stop if he succeeds in annexing Ukraine.

The next step will be to test NATO and the EU outright.

He will step on someone's lawn and see if Kowalski has the balls to to pull the trigger, or simply point his finger gun while Putin drives of with his Torino.

Why? Because if he does, and NATO/UE does nothing, Putin likely will pull out, having "pantsed" them and that will pretty much force EU/West to scramble to reboot its image.

That will cost considerable time and money, meanwhile Putin "renegotiates" from the point of a real power player.


Should NATO respond with force and push Putin back, he can withdraw and flippantly shrug it off as "momentum" and "fog of war" without any (more than already earned) repercussion, and he now knows more about the cards NATO/West holds.


Putin has basically taken the large mouthful of scalding coffee, and no matter what he does, all of it is going to be painful.

He has provoked the world, and what and how the world responds can go off the rails so many ways.

And we have some real amateurs in several seats at the table. They are playing Go Fish, Old Maid and Slapjack, and Putin is dealing high stakes poker.

Crazy, like a fox or mad as a hatter. I do not know, but neither is good for the one facing him, unless you know with no uncertainty which he is.

(and it matters not about the good/evil of Ukraine vs Russia, in any of this)

quote:

Originally posted by Gustofer:
I'm with kidcop here and believe that NATO needs to stand up and say, "Enough". At the very least, let's have a fair fight.

Ukraine is not part of NATO and no NATO does not need to stand up because that means the USA as well.
We have zero strategic or otherwise interest in defending them outside of moral reasons.
NATO Europe would do little and it would be the US that would have to bear the bulk of this cross - for what?

quote:

More often than not these days, I'm reminded of the quote misattributed to Edmund Burke, "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing". We (us, NATO, Ukraine) are the "good men", here...for all of our warts, and we must stop evil. It will not stop itself. Putting an end to the killing of these innocent people is the right and moral thing to do, IMO.

We sent millions of men to defend Europe 80 years ago and it was the right thing to do then. Everyone lauds that action as being a great thing. Why not now?

^^^ Precisely the sentiment that got us in to trouble going back to Vietnam.

The sad thing is that if Trump was still our rightful President - we never would be here.

quote:

Originally posted by smschulz:

quote:

Originally posted by Gustofer:
I'm with kidcop here and believe that NATO needs to stand up and say, "Enough". At the very least, let's have a fair fight.

Ukraine is not part of NATO and no NATO does not need to stand up because that means the USA as well.
We have zero strategic or otherwise interest in defending them outside of moral reasons.
NATO Europe would do little and it would be the US that would have to bear the bulk of this cross - for what?

quote:

More often than not these days, I'm reminded of the quote misattributed to Edmund Burke, "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing". We (us, NATO, Ukraine) are the "good men", here...for all of our warts, and we must stop evil. It will not stop itself. Putting an end to the killing of these innocent people is the right and moral thing to do, IMO.

We sent millions of men to defend Europe 80 years ago and it was the right thing to do then. Everyone lauds that action as being a great thing. Why not now?

^^^ Precisely the sentiment that got us in to trouble going back to Vietnam.

The sad thing is that if Trump was still our rightful President - we never would be here.

We have a strategic interest in EVERY country that borders Russia.

Vietnam is a false equivalency. The origins of the war in Viet Nam are nothing like the blatant invasion of the Ukraine by Russia.

Anything about Trump is pure conjecture.

Putin does not give off the image that he intends to lose in Ukraine. Actually he sends out that he doesn’t care what he has to do to win. I wouldn’t put it past him to nuke a Ukraine city and level it. Why? Because the EU, UN, NATO are feckless, they’ll hand wring sanction and call him a war criminal, but they don’t get that he doesn’t care what they say. He wants a no fly zone to justify his barbaric actions, but with or without the no fly zone, he’s going to take Ukraine and kill a lot of innocent people. Then he’s going to his next target. Potatus won’t do anything more than what he’s done, babble incoherently, send Kamala and tell us how to buy American. Potatus will fold like a house of cards if China squeezes with Putin, both leaders have no respect for Potatus and will and are exploiting his weaknesses.

Going into Ukraine would be Korea redux, unless we are willing to invade Russia as well. A safe, secure area to rearm, regroup and launch attacks from, that can’t be targeted?

No thanks.

A few of things that should now be obvious to anyone, if they weren't before;

1. Russian conventional forces are much less formidable than many may have been thinking and there is not a quick and simple fix for them. Ukraine is right next door so the logistics couldn't be more simple and they still only have raw numbers against a second rate power like Ukraine.

2. Russia has an economy based on only one real major product and Europe and others should now make changes so they aren't hostage in the future.

3. Nukes are all that really stand between the US and NATO squashing Russia like a bug. Without that threat we would have had a no fly zone days ago. Look at Operation Deny Flight in Bosnia to see it in action.
Other countries, like Iran & North Korea who already knew that, see it as a demonstration why they have no choice but to push forward.

4. The only real tool that both sides have yet to deploy so we can't see who has the goods, is real cyber weapons and cyber defenses.

5. Both sides are embellishing there wins and losses in the news but the days where it could be well hidden from their own population are ending if not over. Almost anyone has a camera phone and some access to the internet or some way to get it out to the world.
The propaganda wars have evolved a lot in the last 20 years.

quote:

Originally posted by kidcop:


We have a strategic interest in EVERY country that borders Russia.

Not even remotely true ... we cannot possibly defend everyone in the world nor should we.

quote:

Vietnam is a false equivalency. The origins of the war in Viet Nam are nothing like the blatant invasion of the Ukraine by Russia.

No it was way worse back then and we entered for all the wrong reasons by all the wrong people.

quote:

Anything about Trump is pure conjecture.

Well ... yes .... but nonetheless a high probability.

We need to stay out of it, and if a no-fly zone is implemented and the United States is involved in that action, this nation will rue the day.

Even if Russia does not prevail in the Ukraine, Putin will still have won, because he will have wrecked that country, terrified its people and will have put the Western nations on notice with a loud message: Do not fuck with me or I will make a huge mess for you to clean up, a mess that will take years to correct and that will upset your comfortable lives.

All the brainwashed nimrods who want to "do something" because the television tells them to, need to find hobbies- something to occupy their minds.

This is not our problem. The Ukraine is not part of NATO. Of course it's tragic, what's going on in that country. All wars are obscene. It's not a matter of picking your favorite obscenity. Any US involvement in foreign wars should always be a matter of protecting our national interest, and not because the evening news tugged on our heart strings.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
We need to stay out of it, and if a no-fly zone is implemented and the United States is involved in that action, this nation will rue the day.

Even if Russia does not prevail in the Ukraine, Putin will still have won, because he will have wrecked that country, terrified its people and will have put the Western nations on notice with a loud message: Do not fuck with me or I will make a huge mess for you to clean up, a mess that will take years to correct and that will upset your comfortable lives.

All the brainwashed nimrods who want to "do something" because the television tells them to, need to find hobbies- something to occupy their minds.

This is not our problem. The Ukraine is not part of NATO. Of course it's tragic, what's going on in that country. All wars are obscene. It's not a matter of picking your favorite obscenity. Any US involvement in foreign wars should always be a matter of protecting our national interest, and not because the evening news tugged on our heart strings.

True.
If injustices were all it took, look all over the African, Asian and South American continent to recent injustices we didn't even blink an eye at, and for good reason.
Often with a much higher body count too.

^^^ Right on. Any US involvement in foreign wars should always be a matter of protecting our vital national interest.

Of course, that's always somewhat open to interpretation but Ukraine isn't it.

I agree. Our corrupt politicians monetary involvement and political meddling in Ukraine is more than enough to avoid any more engagement. If you feel for the Ukrainian people, send food and medical supplies.
No more escalation.
In younger days, I stood at the intersection of the Christmas Tree and the runway while 6 nuke loaded B-52s taxied toward me. And I knew that all across the U.S. the same thing was happening. It was the end of civilization playing out in real time. It scared me. And it should be equally scary now.

quote:

Originally posted by Gustofer:
I don't know that Putin is dumb enough to send his pilots up if NATO is enforcing a no-fly zone. That would be just asking for an escalation that neither he nor anyone else wants.

I'm with kidcop here and believe that NATO needs to stand up and say, "Enough". At the very least, let's have a fair fight.

More often than not these days, I'm reminded of the quote misattributed to Edmund Burke, "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing". We (us, NATO, Ukraine) are the "good men", here...for all of our warts, and we must stop evil. It will not stop itself. Putting an end to the killing of these innocent people is the right and moral thing to do, IMO.

We sent millions of men to defend Europe 80 years ago and it was the right thing to do then. Everyone lauds that action as being a great thing. Why not now?

Germany did not have 4800 nuclear weapons. This changes everything.

quote:

Originally posted by 220-9er:
A few of things that should now be obvious to anyone, if they weren't before;

1. Russian conventional forces are much less formidable than many may have been thinking and there is not a quick and simple fix for them. Ukraine is right next door so the logistics couldn't be more simple and they still only have raw numbers against a second rate power like Ukraine.

Russian forces are a blunt object compared to the exacting scalpel/sword of Western forces. Their doctrine is when-in-doubt, level it, their artillery/directed fires forces are nearly a separate part of the army. Russian culture is perfectly fine being the king of ashes, depravity and suffering is as mush a point of pride as it is a point of contention.

quote:

2. Russia has an economy based on only one real major product and Europe and others should now make changes so they aren't hostage in the future.

Aside from oil & gas, natural resources are their big export. Europe boxed themselves into a corner with their Green-energy push by not seeing/understanding the folly of utilizing Russian NG as an energy bridge in their march for renewal dominance. Russia's problem is they don't manufacture much, hence they'll be China's bitch in the short-term.

quote:

3. Nukes are all that really stand between the US and NATO squashing Russia like a bug. Without that threat we would have had a no fly zone days ago. Other countries, like Iran & North Korea who already knew that, see it as a demonstration why they have no choice but to push forward.

Ukraine giving up their nukes and then not modernizing their military, set the path to their eventual demise, other countries with nuclear dreams are taking careful notes.

quote:

4. The only real tool that both sides have yet to deploy so we can't see who has the goods, is real cyber weapons and cyber defenses.

Are you sure that hasn't been used?

NATO signed a treaty stating no expansion in 1990. Expanded right to Russia's door. Globalists caused this and are pushing it. The goal is the end of the dollar. Most of our country has never known real hardship. Closest they have come is having to wait until the next video game update. With the children of politicians getting rich "serving" on Ukraine energy company boards, something smells

War propaganda is some powerful stuff. No, we don't need to face down Putin...the left appears able to keep about half the country tilting at windmills. A clue would be that the evening news...it isn't news. It's a quick recap of how you should be thinking.