Well I heard that it was actually the Ukrainians who wanted to give American MiGs to the Poles via Russia, but the aliens said no.

U.S. surprised at Poland's decision to give it fighter jets for Ukraine

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news...r-ukraine/ar-AAUNCMb

-Poland's decision to put all its MiG-29 fighter jets at the disposal of the United States was "a surprise move" by Warsaw, the U.S. State Department's No. 3 diplomat said on Tuesday, after Ukraine asked European countries to provide aircraft to help it fight Russia's invasion.

"To my knowledge, it wasn't pre-consulted with us that they planned to give these planes to us," State Department Undersecretary of State for Political Affairs Victoria Nuland told a Senate Foreign Relations Committee hearing. "So I think that actually was a surprise move by the Poles," she said.

Poland is ready to deploy all its MiG-29 jets to Ramstein Air Base in Germany and put them at the disposal of the United States, and urges other NATO members that own planes of that type to do the same, the Polish Foreign Ministry said earlier.

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy last week made a "desperate plea for European countries to provide Russian-made planes" for Ukraine's fight against Russian invaders during a video call Saturday with U.S. lawmakers.

U.S. lawmakers have been pushing the Biden administration to facilitate the transfer of fighter aircraft to Ukraine from Poland and other NATO and Eastern European countries.

The administration has been discussing Ukraine's request with Poland. U.S. administration officials said there were logistical challenges both in moving aircraft into Ukraine and providing replacement American planes.

Nuland said the main issue was to assess what Poland's immediate needs would be given it is adjacent to the conflict.

"Poland -- they benefit from full air security from the NATO alliance. ... The main issue is to evaluate what Poland's immediate needs are in the context of being a neighbor of this conflict," she said, adding that Washington was also looking at putting some Patriot missile batteries into Poland.

Poland is supporting Kyiv with defensive weapons, but has said it would not send jets to Ukraine, as it is not a direct party to the conflict between Ukraine - which is not a NATO ally - and Russia.

CUTTING THROUGH RED TAPE?

The U.S. Air Force and Department of Defense officials were still trying to understand the repercussions of the Polish MiG transfer but said the White House's National Security Council was in the best position to understand whether the United States could even accept the jets as a donation.

If that donation were possible, it was unclear whether the U.S. could then transfer the jets to Ukraine, or whether the jets needed to be accepted, declared as excess, and then go through a process of transfer for excess defense articles.

Landing slots for the Polish jets at a U.S. air base in Germany and other practical concerns on how to physically get the jets into Ukraine were other unanswered legal questions, experts said.

The National Security Council did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

The United States maintains a reserve of excess weapons, which can be transferred to other nations as long as certain statutory and regulatory hurdles are cleared.

If the MIGs are able to be classified as excess defense articles, the president is required to give Congress 30 days' notice of a transfer, said Franklin Turner, a government contracts lawyer at McCarter & English.

He added that there was "a tremendous amount of red tape that clogs this process" and that Biden's ability to cut through it was constrained by existing legal requirements.

Until I had those F16 s in hand, it’s FOB.
“Fetch On Back”. 2Scoops is a proven liar.

1. Build a bar on the border with Ukraine.

2. Europeans fly the MiGs to the bar, Ukraine drives tractors, everyone gets whiskied wodka'd up.

3. Euros drive home tractors, Ukrainian's fly home jets.


As long as no one gets a DUI, how are the Rooskies gonna know?

quote:

Originally posted by sigmonkey:
1. Build a bar on the border with Ukraine.

2. Europeans fly the MiGs to the bar, Ukraine drives tractors, everyone gets whiskied wodka'd up.

3. Euros drive home tractors, Ukrainian's fly home jets.


As long as no one gets a DUI, how are the Rooskies gonna know?

Right? How complicated does this have to be?

Pilot: “All right, who took the keys to my MiG29? They were right here on this table when I went to the bathroom.”

Poland's Offer Of Jets For Ukraine "Raises Serious Concerns For Entire NATO Alliance": Pentagon

https://www.zerohedge.com/geop...rred-us-send-ukraine

Update(20:45ET): Some sharp words and a swift rejection from the Pentagon Tuesday evening: "The prospect of fighter jets 'at the disposal of the Government of the United States of America' departing from a U.S./NATO base in Germany to fly into airspace that is contested with Russia over Ukraine raises serious concerns for the entire NATO alliance," Pentagon press secretary John Kirby said of the Polish announcement which caught the Biden administration by surprise.

Kirby described the Pentagon perspective on Poland's earlier in the day declaration that it would send all its Russian-produced MiG-29 jets to Ramstein Air Base in Germany for the United States to be able to transfer them to Ukraine further as follows:

"It is simply not clear to us that there is a substantive rationale for it," he added, stressing that the proposal "shows just some of the complexities this issue presents."
"We will continue to consult with Poland and our other NATO allies about this issue and the difficult logistical challenges it presents, but we do not believe Poland's proposal is a tenable one."

One insightful online commentator quipped of Tuesday's inter-NATO confusion: "No, one wants to take the responsibility. Poland passed it to the US, and now the US says this is all Poland. What a farce."

more at link

quote:

Originally posted by sigmonkey:
1. Build a bar on the border with Ukraine.

2. Europeans fly the MiGs to the bar, Ukraine drives tractors, everyone gets whiskied wodka'd up.

3. Euros drive home tractors, Ukrainian's fly home jets.

You jest, but this actually has historical precedence.

During early WW2 in 1939-1941, while the US was still "neutral", American pilots would land US-made aircraft at a large farm on the US-Canadian border and park them next to the border, then Canadians would come over to hitch the planes up to horses or trucks and tow them across the border, and once across the border into Canada they'd be flown off by Canadian pilots to deliver them to Great Britain.

quote:

Originally posted by PowerSurge:
^^^You’re assuming that Putin wants to occupy Ukraine. He only wants to keep Ukraine out of NATO. Biden has been VERY vocal in his support of them joining NATO since he has been president. His use of soft power is dangerous. This is Biden’s war, plain and simple.

So, let me get this straight.

Putin doesn’t want Ukraine to join NATO because everyone knows NATO is just itching to invade Russia or something.

No serious effort is being made to bring Ukraine into NATO, but Putin is worried enough about it to invade Ukraine and blow shit up and kill a bunch of people.

And then, Putin having made his point, Russia will just leave Ukraine and everything will go back to normal and Ukraine and Russia will be best buds and no one in Ukraine will ever want to join NATO again.

Are you fucking kidding me?

If Russia withdraws from Ukraine, any Ukrainian with half a brain will be trying to get Ukraine into NATO or the EU or both, yesterday, in case psycho Vlad wakes up one day and decides to invade again.

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:

quote:

Originally posted by sigmonkey:
1. Build a bar on the border with Ukraine.

2. Europeans fly the MiGs to the bar, Ukraine drives tractors, everyone gets whiskied wodka'd up.

3. Euros drive home tractors, Ukrainian's fly home jets.

You jest, but this actually has historical precedence.
...

When talk of transferring planes to Ukraine first came up a few days ago this specific historic example came to my mind and I was going to post it, but couldn't find an article on it... so thanks for posting that video!

Years ago I recall seeing a different short movie clip depicting a similar action where the plane was pushed across the border, but in that clip it was a smaller plane, possibly a PT-19 or similar aircraft.

IMHO, Zelensky may not want to give in to any of Russia's demands even if it stops the war right now, until it gives Russia a real good bloody nose.

How do you deal with a big bully? Give him a real good bloody nose one time and he'll leave you alone.

No peace treaty of any kind is as good as a bloody nose.

quote:

Originally posted by maladat:

quote:

Originally posted by PowerSurge:
^^^You’re assuming that Putin wants to occupy Ukraine. He only wants to keep Ukraine out of NATO. Biden has been VERY vocal in his support of them joining NATO since he has been president. His use of soft power is dangerous. This is Biden’s war, plain and simple.

So, let me get this straight.

Putin doesn’t want Ukraine to join NATO because everyone knows NATO is just itching to invade Russia or something.

No serious effort is being made to bring Ukraine into NATO, but Putin is worried enough about it to invade Ukraine and blow shit up and kill a bunch of people.

And then, Putin having made his point, Russia will just leave Ukraine and everything will go back to normal and Ukraine and Russia will be best buds and no one in Ukraine will ever want to join NATO again.

Are you fucking kidding me?

If Russia withdraws from Ukraine, any Ukrainian with half a brain will be trying to get Ukraine into NATO or the EU or both, yesterday, in case psycho Vlad wakes up one day and decides to invade again.

You are out past Pluto, man, with that read of what I said. Wow. Howbeit, I’m not surprised from your other posts in the coronavirus thread.

A former Army Ranger, now a war correspondent for Newsmax covering the war in Ukraine, sprang into action to save a life. While being interviewed about his actions he reports that the Ukrainians have captured hundreds of Russian tanks, and are now painting them up before using them to fight against the Russians.

@ 10 minute interview


https://rumble.com/embed/vu8ncp/?pub=4

I guess we can beg Venezuela for oil now. Biden is blocking new federal leases and the Keystone pipeline.


Saudi, Emirati Leaders Decline Calls With Biden During Ukraine Crisis

Persian Gulf monarchies have signaled they won’t help ease surging oil prices unless Washington supports them in Yemen, elsewhere

https://www.wsj.com/articles/s...e-crisis-11646779430

The White House unsuccessfully tried to arrange calls between President Biden and the de facto leaders of Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates as the U.S. was working to build international support for Ukraine and contain a surge in oil prices, said Middle East and U.S. officials.

Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman and the U.A.E.’s Sheikh Mohammed bin Zayed al Nahyan both declined U.S. requests to speak to Mr. Biden in recent weeks, the officials said, as Saudi and Emirati officials have become more vocal in recent weeks in their criticism of American policy in the Gulf.

“There was some expectation of a phone call, but it didn’t happen,” said a U.S. official of the planned discussion between the Saudi Prince Mohammed and Mr. Biden. “It was part of turning on the spigot [of Saudi oil].”

Mr. Biden did speak with Prince Mohammed’s 86-year-old father, King Salman, on Feb. 9, when the two men reiterated their countries’ longstanding partnership. The U.A.E.’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs said the call between Mr. Biden and Sheikh Mohammed would be rescheduled.

The Saudis have signaled that their relationship with Washington has deteriorated under the Biden administration, and they want more support for their intervention in Yemen’s civil war, help with their own civilian nuclear program as Iran’s moves ahead, and legal immunity for Prince Mohammed in the U.S., Saudi officials said. The crown prince faces multiple lawsuits in the U.S., including over the killing of journalist Jamal Khashoggi in 2018.

The Emiratis share Saudi concerns about the restrained U.S. response to recent missile strikes by Iran-backed Houthi militants in Yemen against the U.A.E. and Saudi Arabia, officials said. Both governments are also concerned about the revival of the Iran nuclear deal, which doesn’t address other security concerns of theirs and has entered the final stages of negotiations in recent weeks.

The White House has worked to repair relations with two key Middle Eastern countries it needs on its side as oil prices push over $130 a barrel for the first time in almost 14 years. Saudi Arabia and the U.A.E. are the only two major oil producers that can pump millions of more barrels of more oil—a capacity that, if used, could help calm the crude market at a time when American gasoline prices are at high levels.

Brett McGurk, the National Security Council’s Middle East coordinator, and Amos Hochstein, the State Department’s energy envoy, both traveled to Riyadh late last month to try to mend fences with Saudi officials. Mr. McGurk also met with Sheikh Mohammed in Abu Dhabi in a bid to address Emirati frustrations over the U.S. response to the Houthi attacks.

The call with Sheikh Mohammed in early February was expected to focus on ways the two countries could counter Houthi attacks from Yemen.

One U.S. official said the Biden administration has worked diligently to strengthen Saudi and Emirati missile defenses, and that America would be doing more in the coming months to help the two Gulf nations protect themselves. It may not be all the two countries want, the official said, but the U.S. is trying to address their security concerns.

But the Saudis and Emiratis have declined to pump more oil, saying they are sticking to a production plan approved between their group, the Organization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries, and a group of other producers led by Russia. The energy alliance with Russia, one of the world’s top oil producers, has enhanced OPEC’s power while also bringing the Saudis and Emiratis closer to Moscow.

Both Prince Mohammed and Sheikh Mohammed took phone calls from Russian President Vladimir Putin last week, after declining to speak with Mr. Biden. They both later spoke with Ukraine’s president, and a Saudi official said the U.S. had requested that Prince Mohammed mediate in the conflict, which he said the kingdom is embarking on.

White House spokeswoman Jen Psaki said earlier this week that there were no plans to talk to Prince Mohammed anytime soon about oil, and that there were no plans for Mr. Biden to travel to Saudi Arabia.

Saudi Arabia and the U.A.E. forged deep ties with former President Donald Trump, who sided with them in a regional dispute with Qatar, pulled the U.S. out of the Iran nuclear deal that they had opposed, made his first trip abroad to Riyadh in 2017 and stood by Prince Mohammed after the killing of Mr. Khashoggi. But Mr. Trump’s decision not to respond to an Iranian drone and missile attack on major Saudi oil sites in 2019 rattled Gulf partners who have relied for decades on the promise of U.S. security protection. Iran denied involvement in the oil facility attacks.

The rift between Mr. Biden and Saudi Arabia’s crown prince stretches back to the 2020 presidential election, when the Democratic candidate vowed to treat the kingdom as a “pariah” state after a Saudi hit team killed Mr. Khashoggi in 2018 in Istanbul.

There is “very little social redeeming value in the present government in Saudi Arabia,” Mr. Biden said during a presidential debate in 2019.

After taking office, Mr. Biden released a U.S. intelligence report that concluded that Prince Mohammed had approved the plan to capture or kill Mr. Khashoggi, who had been an outspoken critic of the young Saudi ruler.

Prince Mohammed has denied knowing anything about the plot, even though people close to the crown prince were convicted by a Saudi court of taking part in murdering the journalist.

Mr. Biden also publicly castigated Saudi Arabia over its protracted war in Yemen and cut off the flow of some weapons Riyadh could use to target Houthis. The president also reversed a move by his predecessor that put the Houthis on America’s official list of global terrorist groups, a move that Saudi leaders said had emboldened the Yemeni force and thwarted efforts to broker a cease-fire.

On Monday, Ms. Psaki said the president stood by his view that Saudi Arabia should be treated like a “pariah” state and that the leadership had little redeeming social value.

When asked in an interview with the Atlantic magazine released last week if Mr. Biden misunderstood the Saudi leader, Prince Mohammed responded: “Simply, I do not care.”

Prince Mohammed said alienating the Saudi leaders would hurt the U.S. president. “It’s up to him to think about the interests of America,” he said. “Go for it.”

One U.S. official acknowledged that Prince Mohammed is the key Saudi decision maker, and that the Biden administration will have to find ways to work with the crown prince on everything from energy policy to normalizing relations with Israel.

Along with Saudi Arabia, the U.A.E. has urged the U.S. to put the Houthis on its list of terrorist groups and to send more military aid to help defend the country from more attacks. But the U.S. hasn’t moved to address those Emirati concerns, according to Gulf officials.

Last month, Gen. Frank McKenzie, the head of U.S. Central Command, flew to Abu Dhabi for a series of meetings with Emirati leaders to discuss ways to beef up security in the wake of the Houthi missile strikes. Gen. McKenzie wanted to meet with Sheikh Mohammed, but was unable to get time with the Emirati leader, according to a Middle East official.

Last week, Yousef Al Otaiba, the U.A.E. ambassador to the U.S., said that relations between the two countries were strained.

“It is like any relationship,” he said in Abu Dhabi. “It has strong days where the relationship is very healthy and days where the relationship is under question. Today, we’re going through a stress test, but I am confident that we will get out of it and get to a better place.”

quote:

He only wants to keep Ukraine out of NATO.

I've yet to see any actual evidence of this.

Certainly massive frontal assault on a civilian population via air/land/sea with a quarter million troops doesn't seem to be a convincingly
rational action plan.

I realize this is a divisive issue, but I want you guys to find the gentlest ways to tell others that they are full of shit.

quote:

Originally posted by sigmonkey:
1. Build a bar on the border with Ukraine.

2. Europeans fly the MiGs to the bar, Ukraine drives tractors, everyone gets whiskied wodka'd up.

3. Euros drive home tractors, Ukrainian's fly home jets.


As long as no one gets a DUI, how are the Rooskies gonna know?

Mr. sigmonkey sir, you have been on fire. I have really enjoyed this comments in glib threads.

quote:

Originally posted by PowerSurge:

quote:

Originally posted by maladat:

quote:

Originally posted by PowerSurge:
^^^You’re assuming that Putin wants to occupy Ukraine. He only wants to keep Ukraine out of NATO. Biden has been VERY vocal in his support of them joining NATO since he has been president. His use of soft power is dangerous. This is Biden’s war, plain and simple.

So, let me get this straight.

Putin doesn’t want Ukraine to join NATO because everyone knows NATO is just itching to invade Russia or something.

No serious effort is being made to bring Ukraine into NATO, but Putin is worried enough about it to invade Ukraine and blow shit up and kill a bunch of people.

And then, Putin having made his point, Russia will just leave Ukraine and everything will go back to normal and Ukraine and Russia will be best buds and no one in Ukraine will ever want to join NATO again.

Are you fucking kidding me?

If Russia withdraws from Ukraine, any Ukrainian with half a brain will be trying to get Ukraine into NATO or the EU or both, yesterday, in case psycho Vlad wakes up one day and decides to invade again.

You are out past Pluto, man, with that read of what I said. Wow. Howbeit, I’m not surprised from your other posts in the coronavirus thread.

Uh… did YOU read what you said?

From that and earlier posts:

My paragraphs 1 and 2: If Putin didn’t think NATO was out to get him (which he has explicitly said as a justification of this war), there would be no basis for this to be “provocative,” much less “practically [inviting] Putin in to Ukraine.”

“Biden practically invited Putin in to Ukraine. Just an American president saying they support Ukraine being in NATO can and is considered provocative by a nation like Russia and a leader like Putin.”

My paragraph 3: You explicitly say Putin doesn’t want to take over Ukraine, just keep it out of NATO, and wants to weaken Ukraine, not take it over.

“ You’re assuming that Putin wants to occupy Ukraine. He only wants to keep Ukraine out of NATO. ”

“ His main goal is to weaken Ukraine and keep them at bay. “

Invading and then leaving rather than taking over would do NOTHING but push Ukraine into the arms of NATO and the EU.

In what possible world is invading but not occupying Ukraine an effective strategy for keeping it out of NATO?

Dr. Andrei Illiarionov is a professor (now living in the U.S.) and former economic advisor to two Russian presidents, including President Putin, and was interviewed about his knowledge of him, and his take on the average Russian citizen. According to him, Russian police are interviewing Russian citizens in public, asking their impressions of the war, and those that say they oppose it are being arrested on the spot.

Dr. Illiarionov is opposed to the Russian invasion of Ukraine, and makes the points that this isn't a war against Ukraine but President Putin's opening invasion of Europe and that he intends to re-establish The Stalin Line of 1945.

He talks about why the sanctions against Russian oligarchs haven't worked to deter Russia and lists additional sanctions and actions that he believes should be levied, and he also supports the implementation of a NATO No Fly zone over Ukraine, and lists 3 precedents in recent history with Russia as to why it would be successful.

@ 48 minute audio interview
What the West Must Know About Putin.

These people are idiots...

Get back in the basement Stephen - nobody cares what you think about this topic.