quote:

Originally posted by kidcop:
If Putin wants to keep Ukraine out of NATO he picked a bizarre way of showing it. I don't recall Biden speaking to Ukraine joining NATO once, if you can cite an example I'd like to see it. All I found was:
"KYIV, Dec 9 2021 (Reuters) - U.S. President Joe Biden assured Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy that Kyiv's bid to join the NATO military alliance was in its own hands, Zelenskiy's chief of staff said after the two leaders spoke on Thursday."

and from NBC News:

"June 14, 2021, 4:52 PM EDT
By Dareh Gregorian
President Joe Biden made clear Monday that Ukraine does not yet have the go-ahead to join the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, a move long sought by Ukraine and vehemently opposed by Russia."
Which hardly sounds like much vocal support.
The Budapest Memorandum was pretty clear in assuring Russian non-aggression to Ukraine. If Russia is willing to break that agreement, it puts any others that they have signed of on in doubt.

Biden has supported Ukraine being in NATO as far back as 1998, at least: https://news.yahoo.com/biden-p...natos-162509851.html

From the article:

“As chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in March 2008, for example, Biden expressed pride "that, here in the Senate, I helped lead the effort to enlarge NATO," adding that it remained his "conviction that we should extend an offer of NATO membership to any country that applies and meets the criteria."

At the time, Biden was expressing support for expanding NATO's presence in the Balkans by adding Albania, Croatia, and Macedonia as members. He also championed setting Ukraine and Georgia on a path toward NATO membership”……. As vice president in 2009, Biden said that the US supported Ukraine's move to join NATO — regardless of objections from Russia.”

And from your own NBC news article: “Biden, who has previously called for Ukraine to join NATO”. https://www.nbcnews.com/politi...ine-will-be-n1270807

Next time post the links for your articles. I figured out which one you posted from by the date.

quote:

Originally posted by PowerSurge:
^^^You’re assuming that Putin wants to occupy Ukraine.

No I'm not, and trying to blame this all on Biden is a straw man argument.

The result I'm complaining about will be the same whether Putin occupies Ukraine or simply dominates it politically - and Putin's repeated demands prove it, as do Putin's repeated assertions that Ukraine was never a real country and is instead an integral part of Russia.

At the same time, there's a difference between saying Ukraine should be a part of NATO and saying that conditions are right for Ukraine to join NATO. To say one is not to say the other, and that's true regardless of who's saying it.

As for Ukraine and NATO "non-stop talking about Ukraine joining NATO", at what point did Putin actually NOT threaten or attempt to bully Ukraine on a regular basis? If Ukraine wants to join NATO it's because Putin has consistently leaned on, threatened and attempted to dismember Ukraine.

quote:

Originally posted by Il Cattivo:

quote:

Originally posted by PowerSurge:
^^^You’re assuming that Putin wants to occupy Ukraine.

No I'm not, and trying to blame this all on Biden is a straw man argument.

The result I'm complaining about will be the same whether Putin occupies Ukraine or simply dominates it politically - and Putin's repeated demands prove it, as do Putin's repeated assertions that Ukraine was never a real country and is instead an integral part of Russia.

At the same time, there's a difference between saying Ukraine should be a part of NATO and saying that conditions are right for Ukraine to join NATO. To say one is not to say the other, and that's true regardless of who's saying it.

As for Ukraine and NATO "non-stop talking about Ukraine joining NATO", at what point did Putin actually NOT threaten or attempt to bully Ukraine on a regular basis? If Ukraine wants to join NATO it's because Putin has consistently leaned on, threatened and attempted to dismember Ukraine.

You said “by seizing Ukraine”. Putin is far from in control of Ukraine. His main goal is to weaken Ukraine and keep them at bay.

And yes, the US has MUCH influence in the world with soft power. Biden and his cronies know this. Go back and look at his and his administration’s words leading up to the beginning of the conflict. Biden practically invited Putin in to Ukraine. Just an American president saying they support Ukraine being in NATO can and is considered provocative by a nation like Russia and a leader like Putin. Also stating that an ‘invasion looks to be imminent’? Wow.

Russia is nowhere near the player on the world stage like the USSR was over 30 years ago. Their military is a shadow of it’s former self and their economy is approx. the 12th largest in the world. The liberal media and our liberal politicians have emboldened them.

Yup

I have never ever seen a weaker, feckless, ideology bound piss poor management team than our cabinet

confusing article. Who is actually giving planes to Ukraine ?

https://www.washingtonexaminer...zen-mig-fighter-jets

Poland has agreed to provide Ukraine with more than two dozen fighter jets following an appeal from Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky and U.S. lawmakers eager to buttress Ukrainian defenses against invading Russian forces.

“The Polish Government also requests other NATO Allies — owners of MIG-29 jets — to act in the same vein,” the Polish Foreign Ministry said in a Tuesday announcement.

That announcement forecasts a substantial increase of Ukrainian air power, as the Polish-owned MiGs have been upgraded and modernized to function as a valuable part of the Central European country’s NATO-caliber military. The gift follows more than a week of unusually public discussions about such a transfer as Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky’s pleas for an influx of warplanes overcame trans-Atlantic unease about angering Russia.

“The authorities of the Republic of Poland, after consultations between the President and the Goverment, are ready to deploy, immediately and free of charge, all their MIG-29 jets to the Ramstein Air Base and place them at the disposal of the Government of the United States of America, ” the Polish foreign ministry stated.


That decision to transfer the planes to Ramstein, a U.S. Air Force base in Germany, represents an attempt to sidestep the risk of Russia regarding Poland as a belligerent in the war in Ukraine.

“We are not sending any jets to Ukraine because that would open a military interference in the Ukrainian conflict,” Polish President Andrzej Duda said last week. “We are not joining that conflict. NATO is not a party to that conflict.”

The transfer will divest Poland’s air force of 28 MiG fighter jets at a time when NATO officials throughout the trans-Atlantic alliance are working to enhance its military presence on the periphery of the war in Ukraine.

“At the same time, Poland requests the United States to provide us with used aircraft with corresponding operational capabilities,” the foreign ministry said. “Poland is ready to immediately establish the conditions of purchase of the planes.”

It’s a proxy war at this point. WTF

US is working with Ukraine to prevent biological research facilities from falling into the hands of Russians — Victoria Nuland

U.S. State Dept :

Victoria Nuland was sworn-in as Under Secretary for Political Affairs in April 2021.

video at:

https://twitter.com/i/status/1501300844649615362

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

quote:

Originally posted by Modern Day Savage:
Intervention, whatever shape that takes, isn't about starting WW III... it's about preventing it.

Thanks for all that. We agree—once again.

Amen on that.

quote:

Originally posted by Underdog:
Russia is attacking Ukraine largely because of our country and NATO non-stop talking about adding Ukraine to NATO.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken

After being away from it for years I've been coding my backside off the last two days. My back hurts, my eyes are blurry, and I'm just plain burned-out, so I'm not going to launch into a BansheeOne-esqe essay . Suffice it to say: There's a lot more that went into Putin's decision to invade Ukraine than the rather unlikely proposition Ukraine might become a member of NATO.

I'm not even convinced that was even a precipitating or primary factor.

I will leave you with this: The War of the Worlds

And this (threadreader snag from Twitter): Lots of discussions about the threat of nuclear war from the Kremlin and whether Putin is rational. I share my thoughts in this thread.

quote:

Originally posted by sdy:
US is working with Ukraine to prevent biological research facilities from falling into the hands of Russians — Victoria Nuland

U.S. State Dept :

Victoria Nuland was sworn-in as Under Secretary for Political Affairs in April 2021.

video at:

https://twitter.com/i/status/1501300844649615362

Another "conspiracy theory" shredded. Just like all the Covid "conspiracy theories" that have now been verified as truth.

quote:

Originally posted by PowerSurge:
You said “by seizing Ukraine”. Putin is far from in control of Ukraine. His main goal is to weaken Ukraine and keep them at bay.

Well, as long as Putin controls Ukraine, it makes no difference to him. He wants what he wants and that's it.

As for just weakening Ukraine and keeping them at bay...why on earth would he invade if he wanted to do either of those things? He was doing just fine by using the two provinces in the east as pressure points as well as the flow of gas through the pipelines. And why would he want Ukraine to be "kept at bay"? From what, exactly? Invading Russia?

quote:

And yes, the US has MUCH influence in the world with soft power.

So what? None of that "soft power" applies in the Ukraine situation.

quote:

Biden practically invited Putin in to Ukraine.

He certainly said something stupid, and then his staff went back and immediately retracted it for him. Even then, he never mentioned anything about a full-on invasion. Are you claiming Putin needed Biden's permission to attack?

quote:

Just an American president saying they support Ukraine being in NATO can and is considered provocative by a nation like Russia and a leader like Putin.

Putin has claimed that just about anything is a 'provocation'. Don't mistake Putin's attempt to intimidate other countries for a legitimate statement of concern. At the same time, why shouldn't a sovereign nation like Ukraine join any alliance it chooses to? Because Putin might be upset?

quote:

Also stating that an ‘invasion looks to be imminent’? Wow.

Not when Putin stages what is clearly an invasion force on Ukraine's borders, and then begins deploying, bringing up blood and ammunition, etc., all of which is consistent with only one thing - an invasion. Even if you wanted to argue that Putin was bluffing, why would anyone believe otherwise? Because Zelinski was trying to manage a diplomatic maelstrom that Putin created and was feeding? Nonsense.

quote:

Russia is nowhere near the player on the world stage like the USSR was over 30 years ago. Their military is a shadow of it’s former self and their economy is approx. the 12th largest in the world.

Right - but it has always had overwhelming military superiority over Ukraine and absolutely no reason to fear an attack from Ukraine.

quote:

The liberal media and liberal politicians have emboldened them.

They encouraged the attack? Really? I guess the Ukrainians shouldn't have worn that dress, and we all should've known that Putin was incapable of controlling himself. Well, either that you're again trying to make a straw man argument.

Yes.

For the administration to actually think that they can oppose Russia through sanctions and direct military aid to the Ukrainian government, while continuing to purchase oil from Russia shows an unbelievable level of stupidity as to how this would appear both domestically and internationally. This along with the ridiculous diplomatic dance between Poland and the United States over who’s going to gift fighter jets so as to avoid angering Putin seem to signal that we’ve got a weak and rudderless administration.

We are watching the Dunning Kruger affect in action.

Silent

quote:

Originally posted by wcb6092:
Another "conspiracy theory" shredded.

So: “Biological research facility” = bioweapon laboratory, is that it? Is the bizarre claim that the U.S. is working with Ukraine to develop biological weapons what was confirmed by her statement?

Gotcha.

As strange as it seems, it’s possible to conduct biological research without the intention of developing biological weapons. That actually occurs in this country.
Equating the two is like claiming that because Trijicon manufactures night sights using radioactive materials, they must be conducting research on how to build nuclear weapons.

And to address the possible claim that no one would be concerned about the Russians’ gaining access to the facilities if they weren’t working on biological weapons, that’s simply ridiculous. If the facilities are working with dangerous organisms, which is quite possible without any nefarious intent, they would not want a bunch of soldiers bumbling through the place and possibly releasing the organisms or becoming infected and spreading the diseases.
Or am I missing something? Hmmm …?

Well off to the trough of disillusionment…

a few posts above I said the Poland to U.S. story about MIGs was confusing

Confused others as well

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

quote:

Originally posted by wcb6092:
Another "conspiracy theory" shredded.

So: “Biological research facility” = bioweapon laboratory, is that it? Is the bizarre claim that the U.S. is working with Ukraine to develop biological weapons what was confirmed by her statement?

Gotcha.

As strange as it seems, it’s possible to conduct biological research without the intention of developing biological weapons. That actually occurs in this country.
Equating the two is like claiming that because Trijicon manufactures night sights using radioactive materials, they must be conducting research on how to build nuclear weapons.

And to address the possible claim that no one would be concerned about the Russians’ gaining access to the facilities if they weren’t working on biological weapons, that’s simply ridiculous. If the facilities are working with dangerous organisms, which is quite possible without any nefarious intent, they would not want a bunch of soldiers bumbling through the place and possibly releasing the organisms or becoming infected and spreading the diseases.
Or am I missing something? Hmmm …?

Maybe we can get our illuminati or alien allies to bomb the Chemtrail bioweapons sites, that way we can kill two birds with one stone erasing US involvement in the bioweapon scandal and creating a false flag where the nations of the world unite to permanently kill all Russian aspirations of world domination.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

quote:

Originally posted by wcb6092:
Another "conspiracy theory" shredded.

So: “Biological research facility” = bioweapon laboratory, is that it? Is the bizarre claim that the U.S. is working with Ukraine to develop biological weapons what was confirmed by her statement?

Gotcha.

As strange as it seems, it’s possible to conduct biological research without the intention of developing biological weapons. That actually occurs in this country.
Equating the two is like claiming that because Trijicon manufactures night sights using radioactive materials, they must be conducting research on how to build nuclear weapons.

And to address the possible claim that no one would be concerned about the Russians’ gaining access to the facilities if they weren’t working on biological weapons, that’s simply ridiculous. If the facilities are working with dangerous organisms, which is quite possible without any nefarious intent, they would not want a bunch of soldiers bumbling through the place and possibly releasing the organisms or becoming infected and spreading the diseases.
Or am I missing something? Hmmm …?

Yeah the United States has to open labs half a world away, in a country that borders Russia to study diseases. Makes perfect sense.

Have you heard about the Ukrainian Ebola and other diseases that are about to wipe out mankind? Me neither.

If the Soviet Union had not withdrawn it's troops from Ukraine which allowed America to open these labs, we could all be dead from a great pandemic. Thank goodness these labs came to exist in Ukraine.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

quote:

Originally posted by wcb6092:
Another "conspiracy theory" shredded.

So: “Biological research facility” = bioweapon laboratory, is that it? Is the bizarre claim that the U.S. is working with Ukraine to develop biological weapons what was confirmed by her statement?

Gotcha.

As strange as it seems, it’s possible to conduct biological research without the intention of developing biological weapons. That actually occurs in this country.
Equating the two is like claiming that because Trijicon manufactures night sights using radioactive materials, they must be conducting research on how to build nuclear weapons.

And to address the possible claim that no one would be concerned about the Russians’ gaining access to the facilities if they weren’t working on biological weapons, that’s simply ridiculous. If the facilities are working with dangerous organisms, which is quite possible without any nefarious intent, they would not want a bunch of soldiers bumbling through the place and possibly releasing the organisms or becoming infected and spreading the diseases.
Or am I missing something? Hmmm …?

Sooo, it's was just innocent 'Biological Research' then...Kinda' like we were doing/funding in Wuhan, China, right?

I guess we'll to just take Victoria Nuland, a 'paragon of integrity', at her word, even though she sure seemed to very cautiously stumble through that statement with the utmost of care and uncertainty. No doubt, it must be on the Up and Up then...

Honestly, I'm not inclined to trust anyone here! It's ALL propaganda and misinformation until proven otherwise as far as I'm concerned. And, I'm not really any more inclined to trust the US .gov than I'm willing to trust the Russians at this point! This is where we are...

From what I've been reading, it sounded like the U.S. wanted to give Polish MIGs to Ukraine but Poland is doing the we-don't-want-to-sell-so-we'll-make-the-price-too-high unwilling seller tactic for the transfer of the jets to the U.S. with us taking possession in Germany and then transferring them to Ukraine and in return Poland gets F16s.

U.S. supplying fighters to Ukraine by way of Germany - I'm sure that's not going to pull NATO into a ground & air war

Poland minus fighters with a Biden-promise of replacement F16s

quote:

Originally posted by lkdr1989:
From what I've been reading, it sounded like the U.S. wanted to give Polish MIGs to Ukraine but Poland is doing the we-don't-want-to-sell-so-we'll-make-the-price-too-high ...

No.

Poland and the others in the region don't want to give Putin an excuse for taking a shot at them. It's that simple.

These are older Soviet tech. (Some with U.S.-sourced avionics, weapons, etc. upgrades.) The U.S. is offering them new aircraft in exchange for the old stuff.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ensigmatic,