Everyone is spouting about the Constitution so lets take a close look at the Constitution. Right there up front and impossible to miss are the Rights to Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. It's quite obvious that it is the rights to Liberty that everyone is talking about here. However in this case Life and Liberty are in conflict. So, answer this, what is more important. My answer is that Life trumps Liberty. Because if your 6 feet under Liberty don't mean squat. I expect that our Founders would feel the same.

Because there is the provision written into the Constitution for Martial Law.

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Article 1, Section 9 of the US Constitution states, "The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.

This provision specifically allows the suspension of the Right of Habeas Corpus. In plain English that means that your right to Trial is suspended. By simple inference this means that you can be arrested and locked up AT WILL because you are not permitted to any argument against that arrest. This means your Right to Liberty is completely suspended under Martial Law. I will also note that one cause enumerated in the Constitution for declaring Martial Law is Invasion. Granted, we have not been Invaded by an army but we actually have been invaded by this Virus. Note that Article One does not specify the specific TYPE of invasion, all it says is Invasion.

Note, the power to declare Martial Law lies with the President and every States Governor. If you don't believe it, look it up. The simple fact is that all that is required for these lockdowns to be made 100% Constitutional is for the Governor in that state to declare Martial Law. You all need to be thankful that Martial Law hasn't been declared. Because that little provision provides the President or Governor the power of a Dictator.

So you folks just keep on blathering about the Constitution. Two words make those arguments go up in smoke and those words are Martial Law.

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Originally posted by Scooter123:
My answer is that Life trumps Liberty.

Because if your 6 feet under Liberty don't mean squat.

I expect that our Founders would feel the same.

Wow, you couldn't be more wrong.

Freedom is wasted on some people. Scooter is a true statist. But, I will give him the fact that at least he is honest about his hatred for the Constitution. Scooter deserves the government he is supporting and getting. No one has declared martial law. None of the tripe he posted has a hill of beans to do with the topic at hand. Just more nonsense.

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Originally posted by RHINOWSO:

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Originally posted by Scooter123:
My answer is that Life trumps Liberty.

Because if your 6 feet under Liberty don't mean squat.

I expect that our Founders would feel the same.

Wow, you couldn't be more wrong.

Yeah, wow. That is so wrong I'm actually left speechless to reply.

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Originally posted by RHINOWSO:

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Originally posted by Scooter123:
My answer is that Life trumps Liberty.

Because if your 6 feet under Liberty don't mean squat.

I expect that our Founders would feel the same.

Wow, you couldn't be more wrong.

Double wow.

Related to my prior post, hundreds of thousands of MEN who died in WWII would disagree.

This virus has been very revealing. True colors, and all that.

Hot damn. Did you just advocate Marital Law? Good God man. Just stay the fuck home and don't have visitors for the next year. They could make a 29' rule, it's not going to change much. Voluntary behavioral changes will do 1000x more than any arbitrary government edicts.

It sucks man, my grandparents are stuck in the house, but it's what we are dealing with. Does the government ever get anything right? Do you trust them with more power?

Slow your roll there scooter. I am fairly certain that the founders of our country perilously put their liberty on the chopping block each and every day they fought the tyrannical British Aristocracy. Take your horse shit and stow it, nobody has time for your weak moral character. You're 65 and have a slew of health issues. Guess what. Thousands of others in this country and millions elsewhere are the same, but at the end of the day, nothing that is done by a government is going to CURE us of the Chinese Communie flu. Look at all of the other viruses out there. Any cures? Nope. Just mediocre treatments at best. Why the fuck do you think the flu is still around? Can't cure it.

Again, your mortality has no bearing whatsoever on my rights. I've about had it with every single COVIDIOT. Live your fucking life, or hunker down until such time there is no threat to your life. END RESULT is still death because every son of a bitch on this planet dies.

Here is the start reality of life.

You live.
You die.

It's how you spend the years in between that really count, because the 1st act and the last act aren't really our choices (unless suicide is on the menu). You can become a parrot of the media or you can be a man, accept fate as it comes and be happy from now until then.

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Originally posted by Scooter123:
I am one of those High Risk individuals. Have Heart Disease, COPD, Emphysema and over 65 years old. Also reside in the Hot Zone for Michigan.

You know how I regard all these demands for lockdowns to be lifted. I regard them as Death Threats. Every one of you need to consider the results. Because what you are advocating is the same as taking your 9mm handgun and going to your mother, father, uncle, or grandparent and putting a bullet into their head.

Oh, man, just stow the drama queen horse shit. Listen to yourself.

We get it- you're scared. You've been brainwashed. All the little invisible beasties? Been around! Forever!

I know it's pointless to tell you any of this, but, damn, man. People needing to go back to work to feed their families does not equate to murder.

High risk this, hot zone that. This is just a bunch of melodramatic spew.

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I expect that our Founders would feel the same.

Which Founding Fathers are you talking about? If I may, can we all agree that the the signers of the Declaration of Independence are our Founding Fathers?

If so, here is what they believed in as far as Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness:

Have you ever wondered what happened to the 56 men who signed the Declaration of Independence?

Five signers were captured by the British as traitors, and tortured before they died.

Twelve had their homes ransacked and burned. Two lost their sons serving in the Revolutionary Army; another had two sons captured.

Nine of the 56 fought and died from wounds or hardships of the Revolutionary War.

They signed and they pledged their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honor. What kind of men were they?

Twenty-four were lawyers and jurists. Eleven were merchants, nine were farmers and large plantation owners; men of means, well educated. But they signed the Declaration of Independence knowing full well that the penalty would be death if they were captured.

Carter Braxton of Virginia, a wealthy planter and trader, saw his ships swept from the seas by the British Navy. He sold his home and properties to pay his debts, and died in rags.

Thomas McKeam was so hounded by the British that he was forced to move his family almost constantly. He served in the Congress without pay, and his family was kept in hiding. His possessions were taken from him, and poverty was his reward.

Vandals or soldiers looted the properties of Dillery, Hall, Clymer, Walton, Gwinnett, Heyward, Ruttledge, and Middleton.

At the battle of Yorktown, Thomas Nelson, Jr., noted that the British General Cornwallis had taken over the Nelson home for his headquarters. He quietly urged General George Washington to open fire. The home was destroyed, and Nelson died bankrupt.

Francis Lewis had his home and properties destroyed. The enemy jailed his wife, and she died within a few months.

John Hart was driven from his wife's bedside as she was dying. Their 13 children fled for their lives. His fields and his gristmill were laid to waste. For more than a year he lived in forests and caves, returning home to find his wife dead and his children vanished. A few weeks later he died from exhaustion and a broken heart.

Norris and Livingston suffered similar fates. Such were the stories and sacrifices of the American Revolution. These were not wild-eyed, rabble-rousing ruffians. They were soft-spoken men of means and education. They had security, but they valued liberty more. Standing tall, straight, and unwavering, they pledged: "For the support of this declaration, with firm reliance on the protection of the divine providence, we mutually pledge to each other, our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor."

Life without Liberty is absolutely not what this country was built upon. And I dare say, these men and women who built this country gave far more than anyone of us could imagine.

This conviction is something we all could learn.

^^^^^^^^^^^
Thanks sooma.

I guess I am triple “wow”...

Pretty sure when read in context, it doesn’t take a constitutional scholar to figure out the meaning of “invasion”.

Yes, there is the option of martial law, but if you want martial law, DECLARE martial law. Go through the process, state your case and stand by it, and be prepared to defend it in court.

This overreaction to the “bogey man” is far worse than the virus and by many accounts isn’t working and will potentially increase the (legitimate) death toll. Don’t be fooled by the inflated tally it’s a numbers game and there are several competing interests for financial and power gain.

It pisses me off when my fathers death a week ago today is going to be tallied as “COVID”. He hadn’t left the house in over 6 weeks, we practiced all the distancing and sanitation recommendations, hand washing, temperature checks, etc. No one has had any symptoms, including him. He was admitted to the hospital with the same issues as he was the previous three times since November. They “say” he tested positive 2 hours after being supposedly tested.

It all smells like bullshit to me. Respiratory issues (he had COPD), put a tick mark in the COVID column and get the extra money to supplement the Medicare and Tricare payments.

Deep state/shadow government will do anything to put the establishment back in power. They expect people to consider sleepy, quid pro Joe a legitimate candidate. Clearly losing his mental faculties, he would simply be the puppet for the unelected “handlers” from day one.


The next three generations will be paying for this shit regardless, the only question is how much else they will fuck up along with it.

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Originally posted by Scooter123:
My answer is that Life trumps Liberty. Because if your 6 feet under Liberty don't mean squat. I expect that our Founders would feel the same.

"Give me liberty or give me death." - Patrick Henry, Founding Father

Scooter, I really hope you're well and continue to be...
That being said, your post has me concerned that you're not well.
I don't feel your post could be from someone with any reasonable thinking.

If we open things back up and YOU stay home, how are you gonna be effected?
Are you locking yourself indoors and not going out to get essential items or having them delivered to your home?
Are you not retrieving your mail?

Sooner or later you will need something... so you WILL eventually come in contact with someone.

I'd rather live than die a prisoner of the unknown.

I don't think he's gone all Howard Hughes and is walking around with Kleenex boxes for shoes, but anything's possible.

Like many other things a graduated response akin to a rules of engagement/escalation of force guideline is in order. To expect the same response in a low population density state with very few cases as in a place like NYC ( which has pretty much surrendered its constitutional rights already) is ludicrous.
And there seems to be plenty of evidence to suggest places like NYC are padding numbers and exploiting the situation for secondary gain.
As a former NY State resident we are familiar with this phenomenon- NYC wants a state wide response to a situation that bears no resemblance to what I experienced 500 miles away on my patch of 6 acres in my log cabin. Now NYC and similar liberal enclaves wish to force a population not facing anything similar with the same restrictions, which don’t make sense if you live in a place with only 40 cases and one death in a county with the same land mass as New Jersey multiplied by 3.

I was talking to my dad today about some of this. He is in Maryland. He was telling me today that they now have a "masks required" law....or something along those lines....that has been passed recently, along with a lot of other new laws since this started.

A lot of restaurant owners that have been forced closed after receiving letters from the state saying they will be arrested if they remained open. With the new mask law, people are being arrested for not wearing a mask in "public" places like buses or stores. People are also being arrested for having "get togethers" with too many people. People that are trying to keep somewhat of a normal life by having friends and family over at their house for a small party.

This is also a state that is now releasing "non violent" criminals from of jail.....and arresting non criminals and putting them in jail instead.

It is stuff like that that really has me scratching my head on just......everything lately.

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Originally posted by PakRatJR:
I was talking to my dad today about some of this. He is in Maryland. He was telling me today that they now have a "masks required" law....or something along those lines....that has been passed recently, along with a lot of other new laws since this started.

A lot of restaurant owners that have been forced closed after receiving letters from the state saying they will be arrested if they remained open. With the new mask law, people are being arrested for not wearing a mask in "public" places like buses or stores. People are also being arrested for having "get togethers" with too many people. People that are trying to keep somewhat of a normal life by having friends and family over at their house for a small party.

This is also a state that is now releasing "non violent" criminals from of jail.....and arresting non criminals and putting them in jail instead.

It is stuff like that that really has me scratching my head on just......everything lately.

I live in MD and there is no mask law. People are not being arrested like you say and plenty of restaurants are open for takeout. Stop with the horseshit.

Dakor, he did say not all restaurants are closed but there are a lot that he knows of just through where he works. As for people being arrested, again it might not be wide spread, but what he was telling me about was from what he has been seeing in his recent "circle" as it were.

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Originally posted by mutedblade:

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Originally posted by Scooter123:
BUNCHA BULLSHIT NOT WORTH TAKING UP THE SCREEN

I wouldn't give my rights up if eleventybillion people died because of this Chinese bumblefuck. Your mortality has nothing to do with my rights, or those rights of others to live their lives. If you're so afraid, dig a hole, crawl into it, seal it up and come out ONLY when there are no viruses trying to kill you....Hell, you might make it another 10-40 years depending on your supplies, but you'll still be dead, in your little hidey-hole. Killing an entire countries economy to "maybe" save a few thousand people is just killing everyone else slowly.

Agreed muted!

I am going to step into this, and hope I don't generate an ad hominem attack that says I am not a patriot or a good American.

Our reaction to the virus was a little slow because no one knew for sure how bad it might be, although eventually it became clear it looked bad. The President gets slammed for being "late" with taking measures but I cannot think of anyone, and particularly not a governor, who did or said much before he did.

Individual protective measures - including masks - make sense in crowded environments, such as public transport and public meetings - while the virus is moving quickly from person to person. I'm okay with these on airliners, subways, buses, etc., and I'll bet a lot of employers with large work forces will implement them in the future during "flu season." This is where people's actions impinge directly on the safety of others and no one has the "right" to disregard the safety of others. It's good business to protect customers and workers and it's not terribly oppressive of individual rights. Wearing a mask protects the wearer but also others from the wearer if he or she is infected, even if they are asymptomatic. It's just good manners to wear a mask around people who can't get away from you during the time when the disease is spreading rapidly.

This "rebellion" that is suddenly in the news will be a bad thing if it encourages people to deliberately court getting the virus to show their disdain for oppression. We are starting to see some signs that people are doing that, like that kid in Florida who said he was going to party on regardless, and then got sick. Rebellion? We should be against oppression but we should protect ourselves and each other by reasonable means, most of which can be implemented on a personal level.

I can't wait to hear the debate when the vaccine comes out. "You can't make me" versus "it should be mandatory, by force if need be" will make today's debate on SigForum seem tame.

Don't think this thing spreads quickly and is dangerous? Take a look at the old folks homes in Washington and Virginia, and the VA hospitals, at the USS Roosevelt, at the Ruby Princess, etc.

Telling people they cannot go for a ride in their car or leave their homes is an infringement on their rights. Telling people from one state they cannot enter another is an infringement. Telling people they cannot go to their second home is an infringement.

The authority to quarantine the sick was something the founding fathers understood and did. I read in the WSJ the other day that an early Supreme Court decision specified the States retain the authority of police powers and enumerated the power of quarantine.

People need to get back to work, to make money and to spend it on the goods and services that make up a huge part of our economy. Mundane protective measures, like washing hands, wearing masks, maintaining distance, testing people who routinely contact others to prevent the spread of the virus, etc., are a pain in the butt but will save lives and should be followed as a matter of good manners if not common sense.

I'm troubled by the few religious groups that insist on having large meetings -- which threatens their children and directly threatens to spread the disease beyond their churches or mosques - and claim the right to do this under the 1st Amendment. Seems like they are invoking a great and important right to do something that is not a tenet of any religion -- and I note that the instigators are often the people who want to circulate the collection plate. We do exercise some civil authority over tangential aspects of religious observance, out of common sense: For example, even in churches there is an occupancy cap set by the fire marshal, and when required by code a sprinkler system, and hand railings required on the steps, etc.: just routine impositions of rules that are justified by safety and certainly not intended to inhibit the exercise of religion. During the peak of the infectious period, it is reasonable for the states to tell congregations that large meetings should not take place, particularly when "virtual meetings" are possible.

On the other hand, when I saw some police chief somewhere was going to jail people for sitting in their cars at an old Drive-In movie lot holding a church service - staying in their cars to maintain separation - I thought: fascism raises its ugly head when given the opportunity.

Bottom line: the economy has got to make a comeback and that takes people interacting and accepting some risk. Some industries - restaurants, bars, cruise lines, etc. - are not going to be the same for a while, and we can't make them be that way if people don't want to patronize them. We may have 15 or 20 million unemployed people -- but then, we have 15 or 20 million illegal immigrants who came here for the benefits and the jobs, so something should be able to be worked out.

That is all I know.