quote:

Originally posted by mutedblade:


Governor Blackface letting his "essential" services continue while curtailing others he deemed non-essential. Abortions are a prime example of what he has allowed but says going to a gun shop isn't an essential function. See how his politics are guiding his policies? Quit playing like you don't know what's going on.

I'll even go a step further for you.

Green Top and The Home Depot are both in Ashland. Similarly sized buildings about 100 yards or so apart from one another. The Home Depot can have as many people as can fit in there because they are essential, yet Green Top (a gun store) can only have 10 at a time. Perfect example of the Tyranny on display in VA.

I seriously do not know what is going on. Around me, the only gun shops closed are the ones that chose to close AFAIK. The Home Depot near me has instilled crazy rules about the amount of people allowed in and out of the store and closed off two of three entrances, yet I have not heard of any of the open gun stores (not shopping for one currently) limiting customers. Strange what difference we are experiencing 100 miles away from each other.

Gov. Blackface McBabymurder saying that abortions are essential doesn't surprise me, so I wouldn't consider that extra tyrannous above his normal par for the course.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
Sorry, but no pass or quarter given for "past decisions" that blatantly violated the Constitution and Bill of Rights. There does not exist "fuzzy information" that permits the Constitution to be suspended to save people from a disease that 98-99 percent of people will recover from.

The Constitution doesn't have a "save grandpa" or "let the hospitals clear out" clause.

People need to come to the understanding that either the Constitution applies always, or if they think this kind of maltreatment of citizens is ok given certain circumstances, that is by definition statist.

Either you support the Bill of Rights or you don't. You can't have it both ways as so many people are now trying to do.

While this doesn’t need to be derailed in a Constitutional debate, I just want to say that I think your statement of “you either believe in Bill of Rights or you don’t” is bullshit.

I specifically point to the 10th Amendment. You may not like it, but it’s there. Does the 10th apply to coronavirus? That’s a debate as anything is. You trying to make it so black and white is simply not how Constitutional Law works. There is room for smart people who love our Country and Constitution to logically reason that the Constitution was not violated in any of this thus far.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
Sorry, but no pass or quarter given for "past decisions" that blatantly violated the Constitution and Bill of Rights. There does not exist "fuzzy information" that permits the Constitution to be suspended to save people from a disease that 98-99 percent of people will recover from.

The Constitution doesn't have a "save grandpa" or "let the hospitals clear out" clause.

People need to come to the understanding that either the Constitution applies always, or if they think this kind of maltreatment of citizens is ok given certain circumstances, that is by definition statist.

Either you support the Bill of Rights or you don't. You can't have it both ways as so many people are now trying to do.

Jones, I think you were answering me. As far as I can tell from EO 55 and EO 53, we are less restrictive than many of the states.

I am just wondering why you singled out a state you don't live in, if I had missed something that Virginia is doing above and beyond other states. I've not heard of VSP or Sheriffs going around arresting people for congregating for religious or other reasons.

The president also singled out VA for some reason as well. I know he signed into law the crap Red flag, transfer, and other restrictions, but that was happening no matter what once it passed both houses.

quote:

Originally posted by Patriot:

quote:

Originally posted by kramden:
It is now becoming obvious that the "models" of dire consequences from the virus are off......WAY OFF. And it is also obvious a number of governors are going to make this as painful as possible in the hope of hurting Trump. These shutdowns are going to cause more damage than any virus. Peoples lives and business' are being destroyed. If you're in the government your paycheck is still there and your pension isn't touched. It's time for We The People to take our lives back.

Dude, what’s the matter? Did you get to the end of Netflix and run out of beer & Fritos?

Obviously you think all of this is a joke.

quote:

Originally posted by Skins2881:

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
Sorry, but no pass or quarter given for "past decisions" that blatantly violated the Constitution and Bill of Rights. There does not exist "fuzzy information" that permits the Constitution to be suspended to save people from a disease that 98-99 percent of people will recover from.

The Constitution doesn't have a "save grandpa" or "let the hospitals clear out" clause.

People need to come to the understanding that either the Constitution applies always, or if they think this kind of maltreatment of citizens is ok given certain circumstances, that is by definition statist.

Either you support the Bill of Rights or you don't. You can't have it both ways as so many people are now trying to do.

Jones, I think you were answering me. As far as I can tell from EO 55 and EO 53, we are less restrictive than many of the states.

I am just wondering why you singled out a state you don't live in, if I had missed something that Virginia is doing above and beyond other states. I've not heard of VSP or Sheriffs going around arresting people for congregating for religious or other reasons.

The president also singled out VA for some reason as well. I know he signed into law the crap Red flag, transfer, and other restrictions, but that was happening no matter what once it passed both houses.

If the shoe fits. Defending commies just because you don't feel that they were "as restrictive" shows the problem at hand. It is like being pregnant. Either you are or you aren't. They isn't an in between.

quote:

Originally posted by esdunbar:
While this doesn’t need to be derailed in a Constitutional debate, ...

Given the topic, I don't know as that would constitute a derailment

quote:

Originally posted by esdunbar:
I just want to say that I think your statement of “you either believe in Bill of Rights or you don’t” is bullshit.

I happen to agree, but some people are absolutists. This is true wrt to the instant question as well as any other thing.

E.g.: An absolutist would argue that, since the 2A doesn't specify which arms are protected, all arms are protected. Thus the average citizen has the Constitutional right to keep and bear artillery, NBC weapons, etc. SCOTUS disagrees, but just because SCOTUS says it's so, doesn't necessarily make it so--except in the eyes of the law.

quote:

Originally posted by esdunbar:
I specifically point to the 10th Amendment. You may not like it, but it’s there.

Good point, except it's not. The entire BoR was incorporated with the ratification of the 14th. Thus states may not abrogate rights under, for example, the 1st. E.g.: The right to peaceably assemble.

Except SCOTUS has repeatedly ruled that the rights affirmed by the Constitution are not absolute.

So 'round and 'round we go

quote:

Originally posted by Skins2881:
The president also singled out VA for some reason as well. I know he signed into law the crap Red flag, transfer, and other restrictions, but that was happening no matter what once it passed both houses.

The President specifically mentioned the Second Amendment regarding VA. Sure, the crap that he (Black Face) signed into law was happening no matter what. But, as stated above, he additionally uses the corona bullshit to declare firearm businesses non-essential, so they have to shut down. Or, am I wrong?

quote:

Originally posted by esdunbar:


While this doesn’t need to be derailed in a Constitutional debate, I just want to say that I think your statement of “you either believe in Bill of Rights or you don’t” is bullshit.

I specifically point to the 10th Amendment. You may not like it, but it’s there. Does the 10th apply to coronavirus? That’s a debate as anything is. You trying to make it so black and white is simply not how Constitutional Law works. There is room for smart people who love our Country and Constitution to logically reason that the Constitution was not violated in any of this thus far.

Kentucky's governor applauds and agrees with you.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

quote:

Originally posted by Skins2881:

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
Sorry, but no pass or quarter given for "past decisions" that blatantly violated the Constitution and Bill of Rights. There does not exist "fuzzy information" that permits the Constitution to be suspended to save people from a disease that 98-99 percent of people will recover from.

The Constitution doesn't have a "save grandpa" or "let the hospitals clear out" clause.

People need to come to the understanding that either the Constitution applies always, or if they think this kind of maltreatment of citizens is ok given certain circumstances, that is by definition statist.

Either you support the Bill of Rights or you don't. You can't have it both ways as so many people are now trying to do.

Jones, I think you were answering me. As far as I can tell from EO 55 and EO 53, we are less restrictive than many of the states.

I am just wondering why you singled out a state you don't live in, if I had missed something that Virginia is doing above and beyond other states. I've not heard of VSP or Sheriffs going around arresting people for congregating for religious or other reasons.

The president also singled out VA for some reason as well. I know he signed into law the crap Red flag, transfer, and other restrictions, but that was happening no matter what once it passed both houses.

If the shoe fits.

OK I give up. I am not going to try and guess what you are talking about.

I think it'd be a lot easier to make of list of states that aren't shitting on your rights currently. This list you made was not nearly inclusive enough and VA is not in the top three of the list.

quote:

Originally posted by 12131:

quote:

Originally posted by Skins2881:
The president also singled out VA for some reason as well. I know he signed into law the crap Red flag, transfer, and other restrictions, but that was happening no matter what once it passed both houses.

The President specifically mentioned the Second Amendment regarding VA. Sure, the crap that he (Black Face) signed into law was happening no matter what. But, as stated above, he additionally uses the corona bullshit to declare firearm businesses non-essential, so they have to shut down. Or, am I wrong?

As of three days ago, all that wanted to be were open, some chose to close. My mom just bought a Glock in VA on the 15th.

Edit, just checked they are open.

Great post ensignatic. That’s just it, round and round we go! It’s not black and white no matter how loudly the absolutists shout and try to make it.

I am one of those High Risk individuals. Have Heart Disease, COPD, Emphysema and over 65 years old. Also reside in the Hot Zone for Michigan.

You know how I regard all these demands for lockdowns to be lifted. I regard them as Death Threats. Every one of you need to consider the results. Because what you are advocating is the same as taking your 9mm handgun and going to your mother, father, uncle, or grandparent and putting a bullet into their head.

Southeast Michigan has yet to hit it's peak of infections, it is only near approaching the peak. And YOU want the shutdown lifted.

Here is a news flash for you. If these lockdowns are lifted too soon we ABSOLUTELY WILL SEE A SECOND WAVE OF INFECTIONS LARGER THAN THE FIRST and the lockdown for that second wave will last at least twice as long. If you want these lockdowns lifted too soon the end result is that we will be in lockdown until the end or August or September. That won't just put a lot of small businesses into the toilet, it will take down the entire economy.

Of course we could all say screw it and let this pandemic take it's natural course. After all Cramden basically stated this virus is piddly shit and nothing to be concerned with.

People, look at the History of the Pandemic in 1918. That epidemic is estimated to have STARTED in 1913 to 1914. This means it took about 5 to 6 years for a worldwide community immunity to develop for this particular virus and it was that immunity that brought an end to that pandemic. Estimates are that it killed between 50 and 100 million people. It also brought about the end of WWI via the Armistice because of losses of manpower and troops to the pandemic.

The Covid-19 virus is estimated to be 3 to 4 TIMES more transmissable than the Spanish Flu virus was and the ONLY thing keeping it in check is these lockdowns.

Here is what will happen if all lockdowns are lifted and we wait for the pandemic to be stopped by worldwide community immunity. Death rate for those exposed to this virus is trending at 3.8 to 4% with treatment. Per Google there are 331 million people in the USA. Do the math and the death toll of this pandemic without any lockdown is about 13 million people. That is just the USA. World population estimate is 7.8 billion people. A worldwide death toll for this virus would be 304 million people.

Now for some more hard facts. One, the death rate for this virus WILL go higher than the current 3.8 to 4%. Because we cannot afford to properly treat 13 million people dying of Covid 19. Don't know where it will end but since only 45% of those placed on ventilators survive my guess is that without any treatment the death rate will be about 8 to 10 percent and it might go as high as 15%.

BTW, this virus has shown the most severe impact is on those with several decades under their belt. Many of those deaths will be the managers and heads of major corporations. Think abut the economic impact if the heads of Apple, Microsoft, IBM, 3M, GM, Ford, and FCA die of this virus and then think about the impact of a lack of suitable replacements because of all the VP's that also died. Then consider the effect of all the Generals, Admirals, Sergeant Majors killed by this virus. Then you will find that an 8% death rate is NOT piddly shit. This won't just wreck the economy for a few years, it will be the "Dark Ages" of Europe all over again on a world wide basis.

Look, I'm getting more than a bit stir crazy and would love to get back to work and busting Clays on the weekend. However I have actually spent a fair bit of time studying Hisory from Greco Roman all the way thru the middle ages to the start of the 20t century. This Pandemic is some really SERIOUS SHIT and not to be taken lightly. It has the potential to be every bit as bad as the Spanish Flu and may approach the Black Death in the 14th century.

There is only one way to bring this pandemic to an true and lasting end. That is for a large enough portion of the population worldwide to become immune to this virus. Getting there can take two paths. One is the Natural path and not treat anyone for this virus. That will genetically weed out the "weak" as did the Black Death. The second is to develop a safe and effective Vaccine, which is estimated to be a year or 2 years out. With the second method the only current means of limiting the death toll is to limit the transmission of this virus. In an ideal world every single person on the planet would be tested and infected individuals quarantined until they are clear of the virus. Unfortunately testing everyone isn't going to happen, hell, I am certain that some here will say they won't submit to being tested. So, the only other means of limiting spread is with a "lockdown". I don't give a damn about some supposed Constitutional Rights here, this is truly about the Right To Live. You are in effect denying others the Right To Live if you insist on retaining the ability to spread this virus.

quote:

Originally posted by Scooter123:

You know how I regard all these demands for lockdowns to be lifted. I regard them as Death Threats. Every one of you need to consider the results. Because what you are advocating is the same as taking your 9mm handgun and going to your mother, father, uncle, or grandparent and putting a bullet into their head.

You sound like a brainwashed lunatic. How is anyone supposed to have a rational discussion with you about this entire deeply flawed response to this virus when you post utter absurdities like that?

If I read you correctly, you're calling someone like myself--who has been calling for an end of these draconian lockdowns since the middle of March--an attempted murderer. I'm pretty sure I have that right. And of course you would be wrong because that's idiotic. It's pea-brained lunacy.

Wow drama much?

quote:

Originally posted by Scooter123:

You know how I regard all these demands for lockdowns to be lifted. I regard them as Death Threats. Every one of you need to consider the results. Because what you are advocating is the same as taking your 9mm handgun and going to your mother, father, uncle, or grandparent and putting a bullet into their head..

(Break)

People, look at the History of the Pandemic in 1918. That epidemic is estimated to have STARTED in 1913 to 1914. This means it took about 5 to 6 years for a worldwide community immunity to develop for this particular virus and it was that immunity that brought an end to that pandemic. Estimates are that it killed between 50 and 100 million people. It also brought about the end of WWI via the Armistice because of losses of manpower and troops to the pandemic.

(Break)

The Covid-19 virus is estimated to be 3 to 4 TIMES more transmissable than the Spanish Flu virus was and the ONLY thing keeping it in check is these lockdowns.

(Break)

BTW, this virus has shown the most severe impact is on those with several decades under their belt. Many of those deaths will be the managers and heads of major corporations. Think abut the economic impact if the heads of Apple, Microsoft, IBM, 3M, GM, Ford, and FCA die of this virus and then think about the impact of a lack of suitable replacements because of all the VP's that also died. Then consider the effect of all the Generals, Admirals, Sergeant Majors killed by this virus. Then you will find that an 8% death rate is NOT piddly shit. This won't just wreck the economy for a few years, it will be the "Dark Ages" of Europe all over again on a world wide basis.

Wow. Really?

The answer is somewhere in the middle.

We have to get the economy rolling and people back to work soon. We need companies, local state and national level, international too, or we will have nothing. Just misery and despair and death.

We need people, companies, others, working, making money and spending money, and paying taxes.

Money has to flow.

If not, you can kiss your money good bye, and you can kiss your social security, Medicare, our national defense and military good bye. The list goes on.



I’m not stating this in an eloquent way, I’m just saying the brutal truth.

Scooter, sorry to hear you are in such rough shape, but how about just YOU keep yourself locked down and safe other than impose the most draconian restrictions on everybody else? I hope you make it through this.

quote:

Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:

quote:

Originally posted by Scooter123:

You know how I regard all these demands for lockdowns to be lifted. I regard them as Death Threats. Every one of you need to consider the results. Because what you are advocating is the same as taking your 9mm handgun and going to your mother, father, uncle, or grandparent and putting a bullet into their head.

You sound like a brainwashed lunatic. How is anyone supposed to have a rational discussion with you about this entire deeply flawed response to this virus when you post utter absurdities like that?

If I read you correctly, you're calling someone like myself--who has been calling for an end of these draconian lockdowns since the middle of March--an attempted murderer. I'm pretty sure I have that right. And of course you would be wrong because that's idiotic. It's pea-brained lunacy.

I might state it a little differently.

He has heart disease, a couple of lung diseases, is "old". Therefore he wants to trash the Constitution, wants the US to become a defacto dictatorship, enslaving 330 million people, so that he can have a couple more years of retirement.

quote:

Originally posted by Scooter123:

Oh, for Christ's sake. Does the Commie Cold cause insanity too?

quote:

Originally posted by Scooter123:
I don't give a damn about some supposed Constitutional Rights here, this is truly about the Right To Live.

You have a right to your opinion.

Your post reminds me of World War II, so many millions around the globe died to fight evil, and to retain their way of life. America lost hundreds of thousands brave men, who sacrificed their own lives to fight for our liberties and our way of life.

Now, many in this country are willing to sacrifice our way of life to "save" thousands of lives. Quite a change.