quote:

Originally posted by Graniteguy:

quote:

Originally posted by ScopeX5:
Depending on how Sig acts with this whole situation. I've lost some faith in in the Sig. I still love my X5s but I'm so so on my P320 as of now. Defiantely looking at other platforms at the moment. I wish Sig would spend more time and effort on engineering.

Are you serious? Sig develops and engineers more new and innovative products than than any 3 other manufacturers combined. I have not lost any faith in Sig - the 320 is a solid product and I am not in the habit of fumbling loaded weapons at some peculiar 30 degree angle so my 320 will stay right where but belongs - in my holster, no upgrade required.

Yup, I've spent money on trigger jobs for all 3 and PELT triggers, two have RMRs. After the upgrade those will probably all be gone. So if I'm going to start over, might as well look for another platform.

I feel bad that you may abandon a platform you put a considerable amount of money into, but it has nothing to do with Sig's lack of "effort on engineering".

Do you think a couple of boot mechanical engineers got high one night and dreamed up the 320 fire control group? I guarantee it went through thorough engineering protocols before it hit the streets. NOTHING, I mean NOTHING, is perfect once it starts getting distributed in quantity. Every design out there evolves, be it firearms or gas grills. Testing NEVER reveals all of the faults in a design no matter how thorough. People do things to objects that were never ever thought of by the design team or the test team. That's why we have ECP's and ECR's.

quote:

Originally posted by ScopeX5:
Depending on how Sig acts with this whole situation. I've lost some faith in in the Sig. I still love my X5s but I'm so so on my P320 as of now. Defiantely looking at other platforms at the moment. I wish Sig would spend more time and effort on engineering.

That describes the ongoing problem the P320 may face. Not directed at you, people are lazy.

If a consumer decides to buy a pistol and looks at a P320, the question may be: "Is that one fixed?" "I heard they go off if you drop them."

That's a tough legacy that will most likely go on. If an un-knowledgeable shopper hears there was an issue with the P320 firing when dropped, he/she may be more likely to simply move on the something else. With the P320 price creeping up, it is not an ideal confluence.

Range Officers and instructors may also bar P320 use because of fear. They may be less likely to break down the pistol to make sure that it has all the right parts installed. . . . easier to just ban it.

These things are just human nature and we've seen it on other equipment.

Graniteguy's statement that "my 320 will stay right where but belongs - in my holster, no upgrade required" shows why some may simply ban it. If it is just a voluntary upgrade, there is no assurance that any given P320 is the more drop safe version from its outward appearance. Most instructors, consumers and competitions require a safe pistol - whatever that may subjectively mean to them.

Glock has survived their trigger pull criticism. Now, the superficial Glock/320 banter may be whether you want to shoot yourself in the face or the gut. But, at least Sig has a fix for the slur that results from unsafe gun handling.

Sig's additional problem is that this drop fire can happen from an accident - an unintentional act.

Someone earlier questioned whether the P320 can survive. From my point of view, it hinges on whether the "upgrade" keeps the problem fixed.

quote:

Originally posted by ScopeX5:
......After the upgrade those will probably all be gone. So if I'm going to start over, might as well look for another platform.

I'd take a deep breath and let this all settle. I've been through this kind of thing before. It tends to an emotional issue and disappointment in something you really believed in and trusted. Understandable. Like you found out your wife or girlfriend was cheating on you.

That's the advice from Dr. Nipper.

Forgive me if it has already been posted, but here is a new video of Sig drop testing with the upgraded components. There may be varying opinions of what folks think Sig knew or not knew, but I believe there is a genuine effort to get a solution implemented.

Sig Drop Test with Upgraded Components

quote:

Originally posted by gordynismo:
Forgive me if it has already been posted, but here is a new video of Sig drop testing with the upgraded components. There may be varying opinions of what folks think Sig knew or not knew, but I believe there is a genuine effort to get a solution implemented.

Sig Drop Test with Upgraded Components

I thought when they did the 2,200 time test, it fired once. Was that test with the new parts - if you know?

My earlier point was that if it happened just once in the field after new parts, it could be devastating for Sig and the P320. They must get it right.

Bruce,

I am sure it has been a brutal week. Please know you still have fans here. I appreciate everything you have done, and your continuing efforts.

I read on another forum that you plan to have a Canadian distributor, which means I will finally be able to buy your products!

My SIGs aren't going anywhere.

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
I think men have argued about different weapons and types since they first picked up rocks to bash heads with, back in the Stone Age.

quote:

Originally posted by mbinky:
I'm sure the Glock and HK fan fanatics are loving this, but their houses are not the cleanest either.

Every company gets their turn in the barrel - some more often than others, and on varying scales of seriousness and cost.

As we said in the Navy, it's just SIGs turn 'in the barrel'.

Everyone fucks up, everyone. Good luck with never making a mistake. It's all in how you handle it and take care of your customers. I just wished Cohen wouldn't have opened his mouth.
The fault and fix, well every firearm mfr., like you said, has made a mistake. Sig just has handled this like shit, by their own comments/mouth. Hopefully they've learned from their mistakes now.

Guys, not everything we love is perfect. The 320 is cooking off if it is dropped at a certain position.

quote:

Originally posted by jdmb03:

quote:

Recent events indicate that dropping the P320 beyond U.S. standards for safety may cause an unintentional discharge.

Dropping the gun on the rear of the slide seems like it should be a standard test for striker and hammer fired guns.

It is a standard test (in California) but only for hammer fired guns, and with the gun unloaded. See my post on p24 for details.

quote:

Originally posted by RX-79G:
Hi Bruce,

Do you think you could be a little more specific what you consider "hate, sanctimony, shit, lies, nastiness, potshots and jerks" as opposed to those expressing honest criticism, frustration or discussion of the trail of bread crumbs that surrounds these events?

People in this thread have posted conspiracy theories that Sig provided rigged guns to the DoD in order to "fake" the tests, and others have accused Sig of knowing about this issues for months, and sitting on it until their hand was forced. There have been a barrage of baseless accusations, lies, poor logic, and conspiracy theories.

Sig, and Bruce, have acknowledged this problem, and are working overtime to try and remedy it. Now, let's give them time to validate their fix, get it into customers guns, and then we can evaluate thing as they stand. Clearly, not just Sig, but industry standards as a whole need to be updated, and a lot more tests need to be done.

Hang in there, Bruce. Some problems just seem to trail a cloud of stuff along with them that doesn't really matter. Get back to work!

I just found this thread and spent this evening going through it as I just bought a P320C a week or so ago.

It really doesn't change much for me. I have always believed that dropping a loaded gun could result in it discharging and I actually read that in the owners manual that came with my P320.

I will continue to shoot it with the expectation that it will become my daily carry gun. I will continue to treat it like any loaded gun and not drop it. This knowledge it good to know and be aware of but but it is not like it may discharge as I pull it out of the holster.

I will send it off to get upgraded but I will probably wait a few months to allow the initial rush to subside.

Others will disagree but in 40 years of handling firearm I have never dropped one. I will admit, if I was LEO or some kind of operator, I might have a different viewpoint on this.

quote:

Originally posted by gordynismo:
Forgive me if it has already been posted, but here is a new video of Sig drop testing with the upgraded components. There may be varying opinions of what folks think Sig knew or not knew, but I believe there is a genuine effort to get a solution implemented.

Sig Drop Test with Upgraded Components

Not to be off topic, but I really like the look of that thin trigger seen at 2:17.

I still think this is a great gun and I am looking forward to getting one soon.

Hey, how about a 10mm version?

I kid. I kid. But, it would be cool.

Something that I have not seen discussed is whether most P320s will drop fire at all.

Without systematic testing, we do not know if a given P320 needs an upgrade to eliminate a possible drop fire. Do we?

Sig announced what may be a comprehensive upgrade for a variety of possible issues to bring a more predictable experience to end users.

However, no one that I read has said that all P320s will drop fire without the upgrade.

Perhaps deviations on the assembly line and changing suppliers/batches may account for a 20 to 30 percent variation in results.

Some seem to assume that all sock drawer Sigs are just waiting to drop fire but what if they are not?

I have an L/E 320 compact and a full size 320 in 9mm . I will keep both and almost picked up a new and late build date carry in 40 cal Sat .

My son owns a SIG P320 Compact 9mm w/the APEX flat trigger.
After reading some of these threads about the P320 going off when dropped, I decided to test it myself on his.

I loaded up a 15rd mag w/14rds of 124gr FMJ topped off w/a snap cap. Chambered a separate snap cap before seating the loaded mag.
As suggested, I held the P320 hanging by the trigger guard w/the rear of the slide a measured 4' off the carpeted floor.

It required 17 careful attempts to get 10 solid hits on the rear of the slide as seen in the various posted videos.
Trigger was checked and reset after every attempt.
End result: At no time did the trigger move enough to drop the striker, it still required a full pull of the trigger to do so.

This could be due to using a Compact, or the APEX flat trigger, both or ???

I do not claim this was scientific testing, but thought I would post the result for those who might be interested.

Tomac

quote:

Originally posted by Tomac:
Trigger was checked and reset after every attempt.
End result: At no time did the trigger move enough to drop the striker, it still required a full pull of the trigger to do so.

Thanks! Your test has answered my question about resetting the trigger after each drop.

quote:

Originally posted by Grayguns:
I hear you can buy HK for one dollar if you assume all their debt. Great weapons, though. I love their stuff, however narrow and grossly overvalued their line may be. My goal is to help SIG do better while offering people products they really want.

Why does it have to be a partisan contest?

This attitude helps no one and will kill our industry at it's moment of greatest vulnerability and contraction.

-Bruce

Attitude? I think not. Partisan contest??? "like "I hear you can buy HK for one dollar if you assume all their debt" Was this supposed to be a joke? LOL

It was an answer to a question posed about products that have a track record of working from day 1.

RX-79G, since your response to your forcing me to shut you down was to delete all but the last couple of posts you've made in this thread, I've removed your ability to edit or delete your own messages. It doesn't really matter much, though, because that chickenshit move of yours makes you unwelcome here.

Happy now, you tone-deaf asshole?

Chickenshit. Got that? You want to stomp around all in this thread and when you finally get shut down after several warnings from me, you pull what amounts to a tantrum. Thanks for making a giant Goddamned mess of things and wasting my time. Way to go. You managed to make the biggest nuisance of yourself possible, pissing off other members and wasting management's time babysitting you. Great job. If you wanted to be a troll, you couldn't have done any better.