quote:

^^^ Fair enough, but how were their prices?

Not bad. $495 for the full size or comapact with typical white sights. $549 for night sight models. One dealer said a guy bought three because he thinks unmodified models will be more valuable in the future.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: andronicus,

quote:

Originally posted by NoQuota:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BX9qeg3FSDW/?tagged=p320

quote:

kludge

n. Slang A system, especially a computer system, that is constituted of poorly matched elements or of elements originally intended for other applications.
n. Slang A clumsy or inelegant solution to a problem.

That struck me as a kludge when I saw it rumoured to be (part of) the fix. It strikes me as a kludge now.

One would presume the original parts were designed to be as "beefy" as they are for a reason.

quote:

Originally posted by Beanie-Bean:
Thanks, No Quota.

Ditto.

quote:

Originally posted by Beanie-Bean:
The first instagram post describing the trigger being "bad" already has me not wanting to send mine back.

The picture showing the thinner trigger just confirmed that I will skip the voluntary upgrade.

What a sh*tty fix for the P320.

I'll wait to pass judgement, but, if what those first two Instagram posts contains is accurate: Ditto on all three.

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:
I stopped in Sportsman's Warehouse. They had various P320's in stock. They claimed to know nothing about the P320 issue.

This thing has turned into a liability minefield.

quote:

Originally posted by Beanie-Bean:
The picture showing the thinner trigger just confirmed that I will skip the voluntary upgrade.

If nothing else, the thinner trigger just doesn't look right on the P320, does it?


My condolences to anyone having to deal with this. I was tempted by the P320 the first time I tried its trigger but I've been a Glock shooter so long, the grip angle is not natural for me. Except for that one detail, I would have been sorely tempted to put away my Glocks. All throughout my years of buying guns, I've made a habit of sticking to time-proven designs and this has proven to be a wise practice, but I'm as surprised as anyone to discover all this about the P320 after three years on the market and so many produced.

I think one of the main things to keep in mind is that in the case of the P320, the drop discharges occur muzzle up. The picture of the bullet hole in the ceiling a few pages back in this thread says it all.

To play devil's advocate to my own point about the Miami PD not taking Glock's word for the claims complete safety of Glock's Safe Action- thirty years ago, the .357 Magnum revolver was king in law enforcement, or perhaps an agency used Beretta's 92SB or S&W 639/659 which have TDA triggers and manual safeties mounted on the slide. These pistols are substantially different than the Glock. The first Glock I saw looked like a toy to me. It was difficult to take it seriously. It could easily have been that Glock's were merely a fad, and years later we would be saying "Remember those silly plastic pistols?" We're talking about a radical change.

So, Miami PD's caution was warranted, but it is entirely reasonable in 2017 for agencies to accept without question the claim of any major manufacturer of firearms about the safety of their products.

Ok, silly question, perhaps, but...

If the problem is trigger mechanism inertia, would it not be sufficient to merely increase the trigger pull weight a bit? Wouldn't that be just a spring?

IME and view: It's more important a trigger break cleanly than lightly. So, to me, a moderate increase in trigger pull weight on the P320 doesn't necessarily have to be a show-stopper.

Or am I talking out my back-side?

I have my full size striker pistol slot filled with a VP9 and the compact one covered with a G19. I really wanted a P320 full size to possibly replace the VP9, but now not so much. If the upgrade does away with the widely acclaimed trigger pull of the P320, then there's no way I would want one.

Those early comments posted on Instagram by a few who have experienced the fixed (no, "upgraded") triggers makes me shudder; it's like the XDS all over again. My only hope for my poor 320C is that SIG will refine this foolishly labeled 'upgrade' so that the actual shooting quality of the guns is at least more than pale shadows of their former selves. This 'upgrade' may fix the drop safety problem, but if the trigger ends up being crap as a result there definitely is no winner in any of this.

If used as a self-defense pistol, I personally would not mind having the P320 trigger pull a bit heavier.

Looks like apex is making a lighter trigger as well.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BX...aken-by=apextactical

I have mixed feelings about about this, as I have a dog in this fight.

I originally bought a P320 while still living in NY, as the modularity of the platform would make it easier to have a pistol in different sizes, calibers, Ect, without having to constantly amend my CC permit.

My P320 started out as a full size, and while everyone had raved about the trigger, mine just plain SUCKED, 8.5 lbs of crunchy horribleness.


I feel the sear design is the cause of all the crunchy/gritty feel, as well as why (to me) the trigger feels more like turning a switch on and off, then a trigger. So a new sear design could possibly be a step in the right direction, as far as feel is concerned.

I sent it to GGI, waited an excruciating 8 months to get it back, what I have now is much more pleasing to shoot, and I have one of the original flat triggers that consists of an aluminum shoe dovetailed into a steel pivot.

I then had the slide milled for an RMR, so finally the pistol was getting fun to shoot, and now this debacle.

I don't carry the gun, right now it's a range toy, and maybe a competition gun in the future.

I may or may not send it in, I will definitely wait for Bruce Gray to tell us what his plans are first.

Here is my biggest fear, that I bring this pistol to the range, and they tell me it's banned for safety reasons! Which would render a gun that I've invested considerable time and money, into a paperweight.

I've been trying to stay out of the hysteria bubble on this one, and I'm hoping I'm not getting sucked into it, but...

quote:

Originally posted by NoQuota:
...

I have mixed feelings about about this, as I have a dog in this fight.

...

I may or may not send it in, I will definitely wait for Bruce Gray to tell us what his plans are first.

Here is my biggest fear, that I bring this pistol to the range, and they tell me it's banned for safety reasons! Which would render a gun that I've invested considerable time and money, into a paperweight.

This ^^^^^ is now becoming mildly concerning.

If the Instagram posts are accurate, it looks like the choice will be between a "safe" P320, the trigger of which sucks, and an "unsafe" P320 that may be dangerous, a liability and you may have trouble taking to the range.

If the Instragram posts are reflective of what we can expect I think my P320 will get "upgraded" and sold.

If the above comes to pass I will be a distinctly unhappy camper.

quote:

Originally posted by soggy_spinout:
......My only hope for my poor 320C is that SIG will refine this foolishly labeled 'upgrade' so that the actual shooting quality of the guns is at least more than pale shadows of their former selves. This 'upgrade' may fix the drop safety problem, but if the trigger ends up being crap as a result there definitely is no winner in any of this.

Precisely. This was my concern from the moment Sig announced the upgrade. Damn near everything in the fire control chain has been redesigned. IMO, the trigger is the heart of the P320.

I'm still waiting for the dust to settle and want to hear some reports from our own SF members. My primary concerns are trigger quality and reliability.

I'm fortunate in that I'm immune from the P320 changes that arose over the course of its production, including this one. I've got a number of very fine SD pistols and the P320 is just one among many. Bought the P320C 9mm and FS .40 X-Change kit back in early 2015. Bought a lot of mags and Grip Frame Modules from Sig at the 20% discounted Sig prices. X-change was $300 then and I got a 20% discount for a net of $240. Have FS, Compact and SC modules, all Gen1. Bought the revised flat TDL. I installed the GGI PELT trigger and it made a great trigger even greater. In other words, I don't really need anything more in the P320 family.

If the results on the P320 upgrades are negative, I won't send mine in. After 50 years of shooting and 25 years of instructing, I have no great need for training courses where it may be banned. Don't use commercial ranges either. At age 75, resale doesn't matter to me. My own LGC has no plans to ban the P320. In other words, I'm in my own bubble, compared to many other owners.

EDIT: Spelling.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Nipper,

quote:

Originally posted by soggy_spinout:
Those early comments posted on Instagram by a few who have experienced the fixed (no, "upgraded") triggers makes me shudder; it's like the XDS all over again . My only hope for my poor 320C is that SIG will refine this foolishly labeled 'upgrade' so that the actual shooting quality of the guns is at least more than pale shadows of their former selves. This 'upgrade' may fix the drop safety problem, but if the trigger ends up being crap as a result there definitely is no winner in any of this.

Being like the XD-S might not be that bad (If owners wait for a while). I do know of a great number of early send-in XD-S's that came back with a really crunchy/crappy trigger.

I know of one XD-S that was sent-in 3 times for a crappy trigger (original recall ruined it plus 2 follow up send in's). Gun was sent back to owner each time with a letter stating "meets specs".- But no specs furnished so my friend promptly sold it. (he will probably never buy another Springfield product).

I waited a l-o-n-g time to send my XD-S in, well after the new grip safety and trigger was being used and refined in normal production run XD-S guns and well after the office staff and temporary workers quit helping with the recall updates. (like about a year and a half after initial announcement)

That XD-S came back with a fairly decent trigger pull and no more doubling. Even came back all cleaned up with free extended mag a nice carrying case. (no kiss or pat on the butt though)

I wouldn't put much in to one person's opinion of the trigger. I would wait for more people to say it's bad. As far as the XDS, mine was purchased post recall. The trigger is fine. Just a tad heavier than my GEN4 G19 with polished internals.

quote:

Originally posted by soggy_spinout:
Those early comments posted on Instagram by a few who have experienced the fixed (no, "upgraded") triggers makes me shudder; it's like the XDS all over again. My only hope for my poor 320C is that SIG will refine this foolishly labeled 'upgrade' so that the actual shooting quality of the guns is at least more than pale shadows of their former selves. This 'upgrade' may fix the drop safety problem, but if the trigger ends up being crap as a result there definitely is no winner in any of this.

I will reserve making an uninformed judgment of the new mechanism based on yet another YouTube video in which the presenter does not know the names of any parts.



-Bruce

quote:

Originally posted by smithnsig:
I wouldn't put much in to one person's opinion of the trigger. I would wait for more people to say it's bad. As far as the XDS, mine was purchased post recall. The trigger is fine. Just a tad heavier than my GEN4 G19 with polished internals.

Why not hope the new trigger is good?

-Bruce

quote:

Originally posted by NoQuota:
Looks like apex is making a lighter trigger as well.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BX...aken-by=apextactical

I have mixed feelings about about this, as I have a dog in this fight.

I originally bought a P320 while still living in NY, as the modularity of the platform would make it easier to have a pistol in different sizes, calibers, Ect, without having to constantly amend my CC permit.

My P320 started out as a full size, and while everyone had raved about the trigger, mine just plain SUCKED, 8.5 lbs of crunchy horribleness.


I feel the sear design is the cause of all the crunchy/gritty feel, as well as why (to me) the trigger feels more like turning a switch on and off, then a trigger. So a new sear design could possibly be a step in the right direction, as far as feel is concerned.

I sent it to GGI, waited an excruciating 8 months to get it back, what I have now is much more pleasing to shoot, and I have one of the original flat triggers that consists of an aluminum shoe dovetailed into a steel pivot.

I then had the slide milled for an RMR, so finally the pistol was getting fun to shoot, and now this debacle.

I don't carry the gun, right now it's a range toy, and maybe a competition gun in the future.

I may or may not send it in, I will definitely wait for Bruce Gray to tell us what his plans are first.

Here is my biggest fear, that I bring this pistol to the range, and they tell me it's banned for safety reasons! Which would render a gun that I've invested considerable time and money, into a paperweight.

I'm sorry you waited so long. It took us a while to grow up to meet demand. Your early aluminum modular trigger is inherently more resistant to this newly discovered "Omaha" vulnerability, and your pistol should also contain our patent-pending safety cam sear and plate which I designed to maintain a high degree factory safety values while permitting a highly competitive trigger pull. Target pistols have different standards under SAAMI, but we spent a lot of money and time to develop this mechanism in any event (thus the added wait). Your pistol is as safe or more so than many of the guns being run by competitors which go unchallenged by these range operators, and far safer than some frankly. If you have concerns we'll always be happy to check it out. It's guaranteed for life. It's a target pistol, handle it as such with every consideration common sense, accepted safety procedures and proper training dictate. If your range bans it, call me immediately please.

-Bruce

For what it's worth, Jeremy on Truth About Guns says the upgraded trigger pull is maybe better than the old one.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/eWCiPnTU8PA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I actually like the look of the upgraded trigger. But my EDC P226 has the short reach trigger, so I'm used to the look. I've never had a problem with it not being strong enough.

Does anyone know whether the upgrade triggers will be black or the tan/bronze color?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Fenris,

quote:

Originally posted by Grayguns:
I will reserve making an uninformed judgment of the new mechanism based on yet another YouTube video in which the presenter does not know the names of any parts.



-Bruce

My thoughts as well; to say the upgraded fire control system "sucks" is far from scientific, and so subjective and unqualified as to negate value.

I just purchased several p320's. I have every bit of faith that this issue will be resolved. If it is not immediately resolved, then I am not afraid to shoot or use those P320's. I am also able to sit on them while additional development occurs.

I have made several purchases of P320's here, and elsewhere. I may buy several more. I am not afraid of my 1911's. I am not afraid of my AR's. I am not afraid of my AK's. I am not afraid of my single action pistols. I am not worried about the P320's, either. As is, sans modification, they're a viable, proven, reliable firearm system, fully functionsl. They have limitations.

If credible reports are fielded that indicate the current modifications are proving inadequate, then I'll wait to have these P320's modified. No problem.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
All throughout my years of buying guns, I've made a habit of sticking to time-proven designs and this has proven to be a wise practice, but I'm as surprised as anyone to discover all this about the P320 after three years on the market and so many produced.

This. And I really like the gun but undecided what I want to do with it when it returns from the upgraded. Keep it or get rid of it for something else.

quote:

Originally posted by Grayguns:

quote:

Originally posted by NoQuota:
Looks like apex is making a lighter trigger as well.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BX...aken-by=apextactical

I have mixed feelings about about this, as I have a dog in this fight.

I originally bought a P320 while still living in NY, as the modularity of the platform would make it easier to have a pistol in different sizes, calibers, Ect, without having to constantly amend my CC permit.

My P320 started out as a full size, and while everyone had raved about the trigger, mine just plain SUCKED, 8.5 lbs of crunchy horribleness.


I feel the sear design is the cause of all the crunchy/gritty feel, as well as why (to me) the trigger feels more like turning a switch on and off, then a trigger. So a new sear design could possibly be a step in the right direction, as far as feel is concerned.

I sent it to GGI, waited an excruciating 8 months to get it back, what I have now is much more pleasing to shoot, and I have one of the original flat triggers that consists of an aluminum shoe dovetailed into a steel pivot.

I then had the slide milled for an RMR, so finally the pistol was getting fun to shoot, and now this debacle.

I don't carry the gun, right now it's a range toy, and maybe a competition gun in the future.

I may or may not send it in, I will definitely wait for Bruce Gray to tell us what his plans are first.

Here is my biggest fear, that I bring this pistol to the range, and they tell me it's banned for safety reasons! Which would render a gun that I've invested considerable time and money, into a paperweight.

I'm sorry you waited so long. It took us a while to grow up to meet demand. Your early aluminum modular trigger is inherently more resistant to this newly discovered "Omaha" vulnerability, and your pistol should also contain our patent-pending safety cam sear and plate which I designed to maintain a high degree factory safety values while permitting a highly competitive trigger pull. Target pistols have different standards under SAAMI, but we spent a lot of money and time to develop this mechanism in any event (thus the added wait). Your pistol is as safe or more so than many of the guns being run by competitors which go unchallenged by these range operators, and far safer than some frankly. If you have concerns we'll always be happy to check it out. It's guaranteed for life. It's a target pistol, handle it as such with every consideration common sense, accepted safety procedures and proper training dictate. If your range bans it, call me immediately please.

-Bruce

Outstanding Bruce! Further proof, not that any is needed, that you are a stand-up guy.

quote:

Originally posted by Grayguns:
I will reserve making an uninformed judgment of the new mechanism based on yet another YouTube video in which the presenter does not know the names of any parts.

Of course, Bruce. Which is why my concern, prompted by it, is liberally conditioned with "If"s.

quote:

Originally posted by Grayguns:
Why not hope the new trigger is good?

I know I do. I would imagine every other P320 owner does. I'm sure anybody who's not hoping to see Sig fall on its face does.