quote:

Originally posted by Rob Decker:
Eagerly awaiting actual news of an actual fix from SIG on this. Til then the P320C MS that I picked up TODAY will sit in the safe. Today started as a great day - I've been waiting about two months for this gun to get in - but I checked in on this thread again before I picked it up.

Goddammit, SIG.

And since we're talking about Red Herrings, here's where this lands for me: I don't blame SIG for not figuring this out. It would have been nice if they would have, but this happens with machines. Smart designers design things and then in use, some weird stuff happens.

HOWEVER, the fact that the pistol can fail in this matter is completely unacceptable to me, and should be to everyone else. SIG should be doing absolutely nothing except ensuring that every single pistol that can fail in this manner gets back to the factory NOW and gets the fixed parts NOW and gets back to their loyal customers TEN MINUTES AGO and let the lawyers worry about covering their asses.

This "voluntary upgrade" bullshit is just that, bullshit, and so help me Christ if they ask me to pay a single nickel to bring my freshly acquired pistol back up to a drop safety standpoint that achieved Basic Human Right Status in the defensive firearms market something like twenty years ago, I'm going to lose my mind.

I can forgive them for not foreseeing it, but passing a single bit of burden onto their consumers is not something I'd forgive. They slipped up and they need to fix it.

Very well said. Hopefully Sig reads this and realizes it's the only correct course of action.

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:

quote:

Originally posted by Black92LX:
Given enough time to find scenerios there is likely not a gun out there that one can't be made to accidentally go off.

Sure. I get if you beat on a gun in a million different ways, you'll make it go off once maybe.

But dropping a weapon on it's ass resulting in repeated discharges?

Then to have the manufacturer apparently know about it, but deny it's importance until they were forced to with video evidence from multiple sources. "Oh, that's fake". "Oh, they threw the gun down." "oh, its impossible" was the party line.

Then "OH, we already have a solution for it, magically and it's not a problem anymore, or really a problem, because it would be legitimzing mishandling to make TRULY drop safe firearm, and shit we wouldn't want to do that"

Purposefully deceitful fuckers is what SIG USA is and how they have acted through this.

I feel bad for the situation aftermarket trigger providers may find themselves in now, since their products have also been shown susceptible to this issue, and some spent significant street cred standing up for SIG and it's "drop safe" P320 which wasn't.

And we'll end with some verses from Cohen, Ron, first of his name - "If you build it completely drop safe, you legitimize mishandling."

"If you build it completely drop safe, you legitimize mishandling."

I nominate that for stupidest firearm quote of the year, if not the decade.

Yeah. I don't know how he gets out of that one without some kind of mea culpa. That one will follow him around. It's like saying "having seat belts leads to wreckless driving."

quote:

Originally posted by Rob Decker:

Goddammit, SIG.


This "voluntary upgrade" bullshit is just that, bullshit, and so help me Christ if they ask me to pay a single nickel to bring my freshly acquired pistol back up to a drop safety standpoint that achieved Basic Human Right Status in the defensive firearms market something like twenty years ago, I'm going to lose my mind.

I can forgive them for not foreseeing it, but passing a single bit of burden onto their consumers is not something I'd forgive. They slipped up and they need to fix it.

That is the absolute truth. I have multiple 320's - with upgraded triggers. I've been reading and have gone from "Nah" to "huh", to "crap".

Not angry. Monday's "fix" will determine how much of a pain this whole episode becomes. If I need to pay to send back multiple 320's, it's a real inconvenience. If they have any interest in the future "commercial" market, we at SF are their demographic. I hope they are thinking this through carefully. Please choose wisely.

Not a Glock fanboi, or sig hater. I own a half dozen sigs (all classic models) and a half dozen glocks. My agency just approved a contract for the 320. Before this happened, I may have taken one (we are allowed to carry personally owned weapons on duty), but after this debacle, I think I will just stick with my glock till a new generation comes out or a significant redesign. And its a real shame because the sample I tried at the range had a great trigger on it, very smooth, very predictable. It was a little snappy for a 9mm with the very high bore, but a pretty good gun overall.

No matter how it all plays out, this is going to cost Sig millions, if not tens of millions.

Lost private civilian sales, the recall cost, the future PD contracts and the follow up marketing campaign.

If Sig had head this off when they first learned of it and came right out and said "there is a possible problem, and we are going to make it right" the cost could have been exponentially less.

Deny, Deny, Deny and claim its a doctored video? Claim there has never been an AD from a dropped gun? Then have a lawsuit go public that shows you really did know about it before hand and have been negotiating a settlement? Then try to explain it all away with some cleaver wording and a couple press releases?
They will pay for that, as well they should.

When the redesign comes along, I hope it still has the great trigger I got to shoot a couple months ago.

I've gotten rid of all my SIGs. Partly because I thought I didn't really need them anymore, and partly because I don't like what the company has become. When I was at the gun shop last week picking up the S&W 4506 I bought during a recent weekend out of town, I decided to fondle a 226 SAO Legion. It was awesome. Felt great in the hand and the trigger was awesome. I have really been thinking about buying one. Now this debacle comes along and even though I have zero interest in the 320 it has reminded me about how much I hate what SIG has become. Accordingly I'll spend my money elsewhere, and continue to avoid SIG. Maybe I'll find an older imported 228 to add to the collection at some point, but I'm not giving SIG a penny of my money.

quote:

Originally posted by Sgt 127:


Sig lost some serious credibility with me and, I'm sure many others.

Yes, but many years ago. I sold everyone of mine after dealing with back to back failures, with multiple models. I was disgusted with the Cohen run Sig Sauer.

Every pistol from Sig-USA....problems, and using customers as beta testers, etc. 238, 938, 290, 224, 556, I mean I can't recall off the top of my head, the rest of their USA designed or built crap. A fuck load of QC issues across the line. Going to long extractors, Indian made MIM, long list that many disregard. Even had a friend on here with MCX issues. Always with gen 1's to customers who beta test for them, then a gen 2 to fix, fucking all the gen 1 owners.

I may be the least surprised person here concerning the 320. But I also want to see them step up, and replace every P320 out there via sending it in, or whatever. Just stand up, admit the shit, and fix it. Cohen needs to shut the fuck up and quit making excuses and stupid statements that aren't doing the company any good, or the customers whether that be .mil, .le, or civilians. The problem and fix is one thing. The comments from Sig employees are downright shameful. Careful you don't tow the company line so hard amidst failure, you may suffocate.

quote:

Claim there has never been an AD from a dropped gun? T

Sure. Can you verify that the one that dropped it didn't try to catch it and as such, pulled the trigger? Odd that no one ever heard of this issue until one comment was made based on a paragraph in a manual? As far as the video, where is the data on the scientific methods used? Are those people certified engineers?

Over ten thousands rounds through one 320 with no issues. the others, the same.

quote:

picking up the S&W 4506

Yet all the issues S&W had didn't bother you? We had multiple frames cracked with the 2nd gen semi autos that they refused to address. . We had ND's with them. The guns fault? Hardly but they happened.

The incident in Dallas whit their new handguns??? the issues NJ has with their S&W's as the P7 replacement? All companies have issues. Yet it's odd that this was never a problem until one memo came out that was verified as false.

Maybe some people just should own any firearms. The VAST majority of the 320 owners haven't had any issues.

A little more fodder for the masses ...
there is no way they didn't know about this.
Hit with a hammer.

I'm really curious about this thing that keeps getting repeated that SIG "has been negotiating a settlement for months". The lawsuit that is posted here was filed FOUR DAYS AGO, and mentions nothing about a settlement.

In reading the cites, if anyone is interested, it is full of shit on some of the hype. Item 31 states that the Dallas Police Department pulled their guns from circulation on August 16, 2017. Item 29 states that a Tactical Response instructor dropped his SIG in Sacramento, the gun fired and struck a truck in the parking lot. We all know that claim is complete bullshit. Some of the NDs they are quoting came long before the P320 came out. Item 27 talks about a FAM, and they have never issued or allowed the P320.

The lawsuit came out after the whole DPD scandal.

quote:

Originally posted by lordhamster:
I think you are confusing "histrionics" with sarcasm. Look it up.

They aren't mutually exclusive. As for knowing sarcasm: Don't try to teach your grandmother how to suck eggs

For all of you who said the P20 sucked-I have 3 of them. Right now I'm putting foam rubber on the corners of my coffee table in case I fall down go boom boom. Jesus.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
I'm really curious about this thing that keeps getting repeated that SIG "has been negotiating a settlement for months". The lawsuit that is posted here was filed FOUR DAYS AGO, and mentions nothing about a settlement.

In reading the cites, if anyone is interested, it is full of shit on some of the hype. Item 31 states that the Dallas Police Department pulled their guns from circulation on August 16, 2017. Item 29 states that a Tactical Response instructor dropped his SIG in Sacramento, the gun fired and struck a truck in the parking lot. We all know that claim is complete bullshit. Some of the NDs they are quoting came long before the P320 came out. Item 27 talks about a FAM, and they have never issued or allowed the P320.

The lawsuit came out after the whole DPD scandal.

So you're saying that Sig has no idea until 4 days ago that someone claimed to have been shot by a dropped 320? No idea that the gun might have had an issue?

quote:

Originally posted by EmpireState:

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
I'm really curious about this thing that keeps getting repeated that SIG "has been negotiating a settlement for months". The lawsuit that is posted here was filed FOUR DAYS AGO, and mentions nothing about a settlement.

In reading the cites, if anyone is interested, it is full of shit on some of the hype. Item 31 states that the Dallas Police Department pulled their guns from circulation on August 16, 2017. Item 29 states that a Tactical Response instructor dropped his SIG in Sacramento, the gun fired and struck a truck in the parking lot. We all know that claim is complete bullshit. Some of the NDs they are quoting came long before the P320 came out. Item 27 talks about a FAM, and they have never issued or allowed the P320.

The lawsuit came out after the whole DPD scandal.

So you're saying that Sig has no idea until 4 days ago that someone claimed to have been shot by a dropped 320? No idea that the gun might have had an issue?

What does that matter to the point I'm making? It keeps getting thrown around here that "SIG has been negotiating the lawsuit for months". That has been repeated a bunch. And it is not truthful. The suit was filed four days ago, and cites a DPD memo that according to them hasn't happened yet.

It has been repeated over and over again. There is no evidence to show that they have, and the filing to show that they haven't.

I was curious how this could have happened, considering how easily Mr Tuhoy was able to demonstrate it, so I did some googling on what standard drop tests are, and here is what I found.

I found quite a few test procedures, but they all boiled down to two, both of which Sig likely did. The first one is the state of California test procedures, the details are in California Penal Code - PEN § 31900. ( link ). A single round with no powder is inserted, with an empty magazine, and six orientations are tested:

quote:

(b) The following six drops shall be performed:

(1) Normal firing position with barrel horizontal.

(2) Upside down with barrel horizontal.

(3) On grip with barrel vertical.

(4) On muzzle with barrel vertical.

(5) On either side with barrel horizontal.

(6) If there is an exposed hammer or striker, on the rearmost point of that device, otherwise on the rearmost point of the weapon.

There are two key differences from Mr Tuhoy's test, first the exact orientation wasn't tested, plus, testing with an empty magazine yields a lighter gun. Both could be important variables here.

In addition, the DoD's tests are (I think) outlined in "TOP 3-2-504 Safety evaluations of hand and shoulder weapons" ( link ). Once again, the test is conducted with an empty magazine. This time, these five orientations are used:

quote:

(2) Drop each weapon one time in each of the following orientations:

1 Major axis horizontal (normal firing orientation).

2 Major axis vertical, butt down.

3 Major axis vertical, muzzle down.

4 Major axis 45o from vertical, butt down.

5 Major axis 45o from vertical, muzzle down.

So, without testing, it is difficult to tell if the 45 degree test (#4) would result in the same impact point or not. However, once again, there is the weight difference.

Looking around, some test protocols ( for example, here ) do require a loaded mag for the weight, but that one does not do the problematic orientation, it only requires the six cardinal orientations. I have no clue if Sig would have also tested with this protocol, or not. I have no insight or expertise in this area, but that's what I found on the web, as I felt this discussion involved a lot of heat, but few facts.

So, in summary, if Sig ran both the California and DoD protocols, it is very possible that they would not have noticed this particular issue.

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:
Getting the spring reattached to the trigger bar is a little fiddly, but it's a very simple job overall.

I put the Apex flat trigger in mine without removing the spring from the trigger bar. Found a YouTube video on it.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

quote:

Originally posted by EmpireState:

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
I'm really curious about this thing that keeps getting repeated that SIG "has been negotiating a settlement for months". The lawsuit that is posted here was filed FOUR DAYS AGO, and mentions nothing about a settlement.

In reading the cites, if anyone is interested, it is full of shit on some of the hype. Item 31 states that the Dallas Police Department pulled their guns from circulation on August 16, 2017. Item 29 states that a Tactical Response instructor dropped his SIG in Sacramento, the gun fired and struck a truck in the parking lot. We all know that claim is complete bullshit. Some of the NDs they are quoting came long before the P320 came out. Item 27 talks about a FAM, and they have never issued or allowed the P320.

The lawsuit came out after the whole DPD scandal.

So you're saying that Sig has no idea until 4 days ago that someone claimed to have been shot by a dropped 320? No idea that the gun might have had an issue?

What does that matter to the point I'm making? It keeps getting thrown around here that "SIG has been negotiating the lawsuit for months". That has been repeated a bunch. And it is not truthful. The suit was filed four days ago, and cites a DPD memo that according to them hasn't happened yet.

It has been repeated over and over again. There is no evidence to show that they have, and the filing to show that they haven't.

How do you know? Was Sig completely blindsided by this lawsuit 4 days ago? They had no idea? From this vantage point it kinda looks like they knew something was up way before anyone else and mislead people.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
Rhino, take a break

THANK YOU.

And, did someone seriously say, "I will not have a 320 in my house"?

Does anyone have a paper bag for you to breathe into?

To research via internet you have to sift through tons of bs to find the facts. I feel bad for those with their entire weapon system based on the P320. I am a Glock guy but I have three P320's. I was planning on having my daughter start using them soon but not now. If the fix will greatly affect the trigger pull, they will be sold. Until the fix is determined, they are parked in the safe. Sig is in damage control mode and I can't help but think Mr Gray is in the middle of a shit sandwich. He has always lent a helping hand and assisted members , many times at no cost to them. Hopefully the fix will be simple and who's knows, maybe it will be Mr. Gray that figures it out.

I assume Sig will be taking care of all of the Caliber X-Change kits as well. If they don't, Cohen will have thrown his whole selling point of modular pistols into the Atlantic Ocean.

quote:

Originally posted by smithnsig:
A little more fodder for the masses ...
there is no way they didn't know about this.
Hit with a hammer.

"There is no way?" Because one guy in the internet did a nonstandard test? No, the only thing we can confidently say is that Sig almost certainly conducted the tests as required by the contracts they've bid on, and the state laws in which they sell their guns. See my post above for details. Anything else is just conjecture.