quote:

Originally posted by RX-79G:
As far as SIG vs. everybody else - when was the last time SIG USA released a product that just plain worked on day one? That definitely factors into people's perceptions.

When has any recently released product been viewed as just plain working on day one? The internet ensures that any issue with a product -real or perceived- is inflated immediately and massively. Careful evaluation of the patient accumulation of facts seems to have been abandoned in favor of the adrenaline rush of being part of a screaming mob.

quote:

Originally posted by arcwelder76:

SIG needs to fix this, and frankly they're committing suicide if the fix/parts/installation isn't free. Shipping? free shipping would be some goodwill on their part.

IMO shipping needs to be free - both ways, no BS. And no BS about modified plastic frame housings (or whatever they're called). They wanted the military contract so bad and bragged in the gun rags about their superiority, but now they need to own their shit.

quote:

Really? How many? The first number is still 4. Claiming less than 500,000 are used is irrelevant.

4 roofers fall off the roof of houses and die a year.

There are 500,000 qualified roofers.

However, only 50,000 roofers actually get on the roof and had an opportunity to fall of the roof and die.

You can deny that it's silly, but that doesn't mean much.

Cuz it's still silly.

I have read many times in this thread that the M17 is not affected by the "voluntary" upgrade. The first thing that came to my mind was that the M17 would subject to a "mandatory" recall.
The reason that I think this is because it was the P320 which was tested in the trials, to the U.S. standards for safety. It was not designated as the M17 until after acceptance.
Yep, it will be a mandatory recall for the M17.
(Don't let the legal types mess with your thinking process.)

quote:

Originally posted by gc70:

When has any recently released product been viewed as just plain working on day one?

Does "just plain working" mean completely free of defects/recalls AND no problems with "out of spec extractors" or small things like safety?

Semi-autos?
P30/P30sk
HK45/HK45c
See the trend...

Even the P2000 IMO, was a better gun that the P229 DAK (other ICE selection).

Those are about the only guns released relative recently, I can think of that didn't have even some minor issues. W. German Sigs worked.

Sig USA is building guns on a name that was synonymous with Sig Sauer Gmbh.
The difference if you don't know, is ENORMOUS and shows in the product quality of Sig USA.

Here's some homework
Do a google search on "heckler and koch product recalls" and "sig sauer usa product recalls"
Let me know if you see the difference.

quote:

At what failure rate should people be concerned? if 100 people in the USA carry and use the pistol every day, that's a failure rate of 4%. if 1000 do I'd say that's a ridiculously small number of pistols in use out of 500,000. How many do you think sit in safes? Even if it's half, 249,996 pistols being used without incident isn't bad. how about 4 out of 125,000? It's still not a crisis.

*snip*

I've already spent some time using and carrying the P320c, and if this were an issue so common as to be experienced without intentionally inducing it, as in 100% of people who accidentally drop the pistol get a fired bullet, well, I'd be on board with the upset.

First of all, those numbers ("4 out of 500K") are irrelevant. It is 4 that SIG acknowledges. We don't know how many guns have ND'd due to this defect, as they aren't all going to be reported. And, not all NDs reported will be acknowledged by SIG. We also don't know the most important stat - that is, how many pistols are defective. Is it a small batch, or is it close to 100%?

Also, it is in SiG's best interest to keep that reported number as low as possible. Maybe they had 1000 reported NDs, but only 'confirmed' those 4. We don't know.

I like the airbag analogy. My truck's airbags may be defective to the point that they would fail 100% of the time, and (hopefully) I'd never know it.

I've never dropped my Glock or P226. I am confident, though, that I could do so without an ND (which could have lethal consequences).

I tell people that a good quality firearm WILL NEVER fire unless one pulls the trigger. This is why I will never own a cheap firearm (Lorcine, Hi Point, etc). SIG has a huge problem, and the way they respond to it may determine their company's future.

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:

quote:

Really? How many? The first number is still 4. Claiming less than 500,000 are used is irrelevant.

4 roofers fall of the roof of houses and die a year.

There are 500,000 qualified roofers.

However, only 50,000 roofers actually get on the roof and had an opportunity to fall of the roof and die.

You can deny that it's silly, but that doesn't mean much.

Cuz it's still silly.

Not everyone is on the roof? Nonsense, most everyone who works at a roofing company does that work on the roof. OSHA isn't counting office staff, and a couple guys on the ground still end up going up at some point. The number of construction workers who work on roofs, and are injured or killed from falling, are numbers we can actually look at. Occupational safety data is per 100,000 typically, and do you think it's ever been as low as 4? What do you think it would take to get to 0? The data for roofers is about 30 per 100,000 from just falls. So do we have 150 deaths from this firearm drop safety issue? Perhaps the level of danger isn't the same.

When we're talking about 4 incidents out of a potential for 500,000 incidents, why is it only "silly" if the math doesn't make your point?

Again, I'm not saying that this shouldn't be remedied by SIG, but 4 out of however many actively used pistols in the years since it was introduced, means they should be about to fix it without people getting upset.

Apparently accidental deaths from firearms are at about .2 per 100,000, some 600 a year. I'd say it's impossible to break that down by brand. Since they arrive at that statistic by comparing it to the population as a whole, taking the 500,000 pistols sold to compare to the 4 incidents is reasonable.

It doesn't mean it's not a problem. It's just not a catastrophe, conspiracy, or scandal.

We've explained it to you, we can't understand it for you.

quote:

Originally posted by Blackwater:
Sig USA is building guns on a name that was synonymous with Sig Sauer Gmbh.
The difference if you don't know, is ENORMOUS and shows in the product quality of Sig USA.

My personal experience with European and American SIGs differs.

I am also not impressed with legends about German quality when Sig Sauer Gmbh built its reputation around designs based on radical cost-saving measures.

Please read our first of a series of official statements on this subject of the newly discovered "Omaha drop" vulnerability.

My Crew and I have been intensely focused on this since it hit Monday.

Unlike the overhyped non-story from Dallas two weeks ago that a minority of opportunistic bloggers embellished with fabrications, this new story out of Omaha Outdoors is substantive.

And unlike our response to the largely fictional Dallas fiasco, our response to this new revelation is completely different, as befits the real concerns it imports.

Grayguns Inc. is working very closely with our partner SIG SAUER to address the REAL concerns our mutual customers rightfully have about their P320's.

Our customers who have ever had P320 competition or carry work, or who have installed a PELT trigger, will be offered an array of excellent options that each preserve or enhance the original value proposition they paid good money for. SIG will respect our work, and we will offer better alternatives either way. These details need to be ironed out, and that's what we're doing now. As we were all blindsided by this, it will take time.

We urge everyone to use the same safe gun handling best-practices as they always should, and to not use any gun they are not confident in, no matter what it may be.

We are seeing to it that not one mutual SIG / Grayguns Inc. customer will be left stranded with a pistol he or she doesn't fully trust, nor lose a dime of investment value.

On a personal note, my friends and those who actually know the facts of the situation understand what this is costing us, and SIG.

I suppose that some of the members here who are taking potshots at me or SIG think "doing the right thing" is actually a choice, versus arguing specs and standards and saying "SAAMI doesn't apply to target pistols" (it doesn't) and just walking away. Maybe it would be a choice for them?

Sanctimony is cheap when you don't have to write the cheques we are.

We'll update everyone on our plans to take care of all of our customers as we develop and implement them.

I have a lot of great, wonderful friends here. In the many years I've been a member here, I have asked for little. Now I am: continue to push away the hate and nastiness I see here, and which infects all of social media. Push back on the minority of jerks whose lives seem reduced to
tearing others down in ceaselessly deconstructive arguing.

And stop posting innuendo, speculation and repeated lies as if they were facts.
There is practically nothing asserted in this entire thread that I can say is entirely factual.

Our industry is eating itself alive with this shit, and with the industry goes the sports, civil rights and traditions that it supports.

Everyone needs to stop it. Now.

God bless you all. Somebof my fellow Forum members piss me off sometimes, but like a loyal son, I will never forget the family I came from. ❤️

-Bruce

Ok because I would rather run statistical simulations rather than mow the lawn on a Saturday afternoon I ran some numbers based various numbers kicked around in this thread.

What is the percentage likely hood of having a dropped discharge if I handle a loaded P320 10 minutes out of every month. I used 10 minutes because I usually run three competition matches each month with each match having about six stages that last about 30 seconds each, round up to get 10 minutes per month with a loaded P320 is in my hand at risk of dropping, I am not including other weird hits on the pistol while in holsters for simplicity, just dropped from the hand.

So 500,000 P320s sold in 4 years
say about 60% are safe queens or otherwise dormant.

This leaves about 200,000 P320s running about 10 minutes each month while held in a hand loaded ready to shoot. I think this is a really high number but lets go with it.

That makes 2,000,000 P320 loaded gun handling minutes per month

There have been 4 incidence of dropped fire in 4 years which equals 0.0833 incidences per month.

So every 2,000,000 / .0833 = 24,009,603 loaded gun handling minutes per month before you will have one gun dropped discharge.

Or for every minute I hold a loaded P320 in my hand I have a 0.00000417% chance of AD drop. 1/24,009,603 x 100 = 0.00000417%

Off to mow the lawn. Just made up numbers for the fun of it.

^^^^
Nice analysis, very reasonable - I'd venture that upwards of 80% of all pistols are dormant; however that is just conjecture.

Much better than mowing the lawn.

quote:

Originally posted by Grayguns:
We are seeing to it that not one mutual SIG / Grayguns Inc. customer will be left stranded with a pistol he or she doesn't fully trust, nor lose a dime of investment value.

On a personal note, my friends and those who actually know the facts of the situation understand what this is costing us.

Very cool Bruce. You are as dependable as always.

Thank you, Smuggler.

BTW, the real number is closer to 350,000 I believe.

-B

quote:

Originally posted by Grayguns:
Please read our first of a series of official statements on this subject of the newly discovered "Omaha drop" vulnerability.

My Crew and I have been intensely focused on this since it hit Monday.

Unlike the overhyped non-story from Dallas two weeks ago that a minority of opportunistic bloggers embellished with fabrications, this new story out of Omaha Outdoors is substantive.

And unlike our response to the largely fictional Dallas fiasco, our response to this new revelation is completely different, as befits the real concerns it imports.

-Bruce

Bruce, you were 100% correct in your response to the Dallas situation. However what people were reacting to I suspect are the following lines from page 6:

quote:

Originally posted by Grayguns:
I am here to tell you that there is no safety issues with the P320.

This was a very hard to find safety issue. As someone in data analytics & software biz, I feel you on this. Looking at the same data you had to go on at the time, I'd have come to the same conclusion.

quote:

Originally posted by Grayguns:
And, for that record, there has never been a verified instance of any P320 firing when dropped out of the nearly 350,000 sold to date, much less a factory-spec pistol.

I have looked for such reports and followed up on everything I find, for three solud years. It hasn't happened.

The recent YouTube video pupirtibg to show a "P320 drop test" failure is an obvious fake.

I have personally bounced these puppies off of everything I can find. No go bang, ever.

This crap needs to be dismissed. The P320 is safe.

-Bruce

I think in retrospect we got very lucky that the internet "trolls" indeed got interested. Because in this case they potentially may have saved a life or two in the process.

Thanks Bruce.

Among my many real concerns in life, my P320 with the PELT trigger is not one of them. Keep up the good work. This too shall pass.

quote:

Originally posted by Blackwater:

quote:

Originally posted by gc70:

When has any recently released product been viewed as just plain working on day one?

Does "just plain working" mean completely free of defects/recalls AND no problems with "out of spec extractors" or small things like safety?

Semi-autos?
P30/P30sk
HK45/HK45c
See the trend...

Even the P2000 IMO, was a better gun that the P229 DAK (other ICE selection).

Those are about the only guns released relative recently, I can think of that didn't have even some minor issues. W. German Sigs worked.

Sig USA is building guns on a name that was synonymous with Sig Sauer Gmbh.
The difference if you don't know, is ENORMOUS and shows in the product quality of Sig USA.

Here's some homework
Do a google search on "heckler and koch product recalls" and "sig sauer usa product recalls"
Let me know if you see the difference.

I hear you can buy HK for one dollar if you assume all their debt. Great weapons, though. I love their stuff, however narrow and grossly overvalued their line may be. My goal is to help SIG do better while offering people products they really want.

Why does it have to be a partisan contest?

This attitude helps no one and will kill our industry at it's moment of greatest vulnerability and contraction.

-Bruce

P2000 better than the P229. Really? Didn't the P2000 .40 have some issues?

I sold all of my HK's except my 9mm P2000. They just didn't fit me and I personally think they are overpriced. I'll take my Beretta any day of the week over them. But that's just my opinion.

I'm sure the Glock and HK fan fanatics are loving this, but their houses are not the cleanest either.

Thanks for chiming in Bruce, best of luck. I'm sure Sig will get it figured out. As I said before I have NEVER seen something get fielded and NOT have issues pop up, no matter what testing was conducted.

I think men have argued about different weapons and types since they first picked up rocks to bash heads with, back in the Stone Age.

quote:

Originally posted by mbinky:
I'm sure the Glock and HK fan fanatics are loving this, but their houses are not the cleanest either.

Every company gets their turn in the barrel - some more often than others, and on varying scales of seriousness and cost.

As we said in the Navy, it's just SIGs turn 'in the barrel'.

Thanks, Bruce. Hang in there.