I watched that new component drop video from Sig. That thin trigger looks nice. I kind of fast forwarded fhrough it. Did they mention any internal changes or new striker in addition to the low mass trigger?

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
RX-79G, since your response to your forcing me to shut you down was to delete all but the last couple of posts you've made in this thread,

...that would explain why this thread got literally 3 or 4 pages shorter than it was last evening. I wasn't sure if I was going crazy or not....

quote:

Originally posted by Tubetone:
Range Officers and instructors may also bar P320 use because of fear. They may be less likely to break down the pistol to make sure that it has all the right parts installed. . . . easier to just ban it

When has this ever occurred? People bring all kinds of guns to the range, many without drop safeties. This even includes guns that can fire by themselves, the Broomhandle Mauser for example. Those can fire without notice if they don't have the "NS" stamped hammer.

There are a series of protocols at any range, that don't rely on the guns mechanical safeties. Namely muzzle downrange, action open, magazine separate from the gun.

When other makers have had problems, I don't remember anyone being asked to disassemble a pistol to demonstrate upgraded parts, and I worked at a commercial range. Maybe this happens at LE/MIL ranges?

Ranges sometimes prohibit "holster work," but on all handguns, not specific ones.

Someone as an individual might find themselves banned from a range, perhaps if they drop guns a bunch of times or other unsafe behavior. But, I can't say I've ever heard a particular model of gun banned from the range.

quote:

Originally posted by Oat_Action_Man:

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
RX-79G, since your response to your forcing me to shut you down was to delete all but the last couple of posts you've made in this thread,

...that would explain why this thread got literally 3 or 4 pages shorter than it was last evening. I wasn't sure if I was going crazy or not....

Yes, we were over 53 I thought, I woke up thismorning and thought I'd either gone back in time, or had seen the future.

Childish behavior

quote:

Originally posted by Oat_Action_Man:

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
RX-79G, since your response to your forcing me to shut you down was to delete all but the last couple of posts you've made in this thread,

...that would explain why this thread got literally 3 or 4 pages shorter than it was last evening. I wasn't sure if I was going crazy or not....

Annnnnd the penny finally drops

I'd wondered the same thing, myself. "I would have sworn..." But, since I'd had rx-79g on ignore since he started his nonsense, I missed the reason why.

quote:

Originally posted by arcwelder76:

quote:

Originally posted by Tubetone:
Range Officers and instructors may also bar P320 use because of fear. They may be less likely to break down the pistol to make sure that it has all the right parts installed. . . . easier to just ban it

When has this ever occurred? People bring all kinds of guns to the range, many without drop safeties. This even includes guns that can fire by themselves, the Broomhandle Mauser for example. Those can fire without notice if they don't have the "NS" stamped hammer.

There are a series of protocols at any range, that don't rely on the guns mechanical safeties. Namely muzzle downrange, action open, magazine separate from the gun.

When other makers have had problems, I don't remember anyone being asked to disassemble a pistol to demonstrate upgraded parts, and I worked at a commercial range. Maybe this happens at LE/MIL ranges?

Ranges sometimes prohibit "holster work," but on all handguns, not specific ones.

Someone as an individual might find themselves banned from a range, perhaps if they drop guns a bunch of times or other unsafe behavior. But, I can't say I've ever heard a particular model of gun banned from the range.

I guess we will see. It depends on the range and officials.

I have read reports where this is underway. If our local range knew of a drop safety issue with a particular pistol and it was in an inconclusive state, I suspect it would be off the range.

My disassembly point was obviously not stated clear enough; I don't think many range officers are going to break down any pistol to verify safety upgrades. Some may but my sense is that many will not handle it that way.

Here is a sample: "Got a batch email from my range today that all variants of the P320 are immediately banned from the premises for any purpose until the owner can show, on company letterhead, compliance with SIG's announced "upgrade" program." Link

I've run across quite a few and I may add more to the list but a "P320 ban" kind of search will land links.

Once safety concerns hit the impression of an item, its hard to fight it back but it's possible with education although sometimes decisions are made early and become sticky.

An argument against a ban is found here but the author acknowledges that " . . . I am seeing isolated reports of some local club Match Directors that have banned the P320 from use in competition. In fact, two Match Directors locally to me have formally stated they will not allow any variant of the P320 to be used at their match." Link

It's all kind of reminiscent of the Serpa holster arguments. Some will be dogmatic and others will explore the issue more openly. One can always say that there are "better" alternatives but, hopefully, most will look farther because Sig is offering an upgrade.

quote:

Originally posted by Shackelford:

, and others have accused Sig of knowing about this issues for months, and sitting on it until their hand was forced. There have been a barrage of baseless accusations, lies, poor logic, and conspiracy theories.

I think this is a fair theory. SIG denies any problem one day, and the next they have a solution in place. To me, the drop fire issue isn't as big of a concern as the *suspected* cover-up (and the CEO's retarded press statement did NOT help their cause).

It looks like they did everything possible to cover this up instead of coming out from the start to address the problem. This also casts doubts on the military trials - is this defect present in the future military pistols?

It is also annoying that a mistake by SIG affects good honest people like Bruce Gray. He will take a loss through no fault of his own. His only error, IMO, was in trusting SIG and supporting them when SIG KNEW there was a design flaw. . .

Reading this thread from the beginning, it was sad to see all the people loyally defending SIG from the 'baseless accusations,' most of which turned out to be true.

I hope sig sticks with the gold trigger to indicate fixed pistols. That should make any range inspections pretty instant.

Ha ha. I agree. Plus that bronze/gold/fde trigger looked good. I know all won't agree but I have a bronze/gold/fde 320C so it would work for me.

In reality though that trigger is visually distinctive enough by itself to indicate the upgrade.

I really don't care other than fixing a problem I didn't know existed two weeks ago. I struggle knowing that I really don't know for sure about the drop safety of any guns in my safe. I don't drop them. I certainly don't drop test them lol. I take the manufacturer at their word.

I love the 320 and just want a reasonable solution. And I want the cost to be born by Sig. I think that is reasonable. Plus I just bought another 225A1 from Q so I really don't want to disavow myself from a favorite manufacturer. (Talk is cheap, myself included)

Now that Abby Normal has returned to the Land of Quantum Physics, we can get back to normal.

[IMG:left] [/IMG]

https://youtu.be/aeJKCNGinkY

This test should have had a loaded magazine (inert rounds of course) or a weighted dummy magazine inserted into the dropped gun. Dropping without that added mass the, test is flawed, IMHO.

quote:

I think this is a fair theory. SIG denies any problem one day, and the next they have a solution in place. To me, the drop fire issue isn't as big of a concern as the *suspected* cover-up (and the CEO's retarded press statement did NOT help their cause).

Yeah, I have to agree. Poorly handled, poorly communicated, and people left hanging.

quote:

Once safety concerns hit the impression of an item, its hard to fight it back but it's possible with education although sometimes decisions are made early and become sticky

And I think the heart of the issue between a P320 and all those 'heavily modified open guns' is this.

If a dude brings his personal tricked out gun (not drop safe) to the range and something happens, the range owner / RSO has a degree of "I didn't know his gun wasn't drop safe" to fall back on.

With the P320 and all these press releases, videos, upgrade program, etc I think it will be much harder for a range owner to say "But I didn't know" if something happens with someone shooing a P320 (un-ungraded one).

Strictly from a potential liability standpoint.

quote:

Originally posted by Biggy:
https://youtu.be/aeJKCNGinkY

This test should have had a loaded magazine (inert rounds of course) or a weighted dummy magazine inserted into the dropped gun. Dropping without that added mass the, test is flawed, IMHO.

See the description -
Published on Aug 12, 2017
Magazines were weighted with dummy rounds!- We visit SIG SAUER's test lab to watch them drop test the P320 with the parts that are included in their voluntary upgrade. These include a reduced-mass trigger, sear, and striker as well as a trigger disconnect safety and a new sear cage. FYI, the M17 pistol being delivered to the Army -- the military version of the commercial P320 -- already has all of these upgrades *plus* a manual thumb safety.

I wonder if they have dropped any with a weapons light attached ?

Yea I agree a loaded magazine adds weight which puts more force on the trigger. I still stand the fact that Sig denied the problem and then goes "Ok we'll fix it" is upsetting to me. Anyway, I hope sig makes this replacement painless and it would be nice if I could pick one up rather than send it in. The "Voluntary" upgrade leaves me to believe sig with return the firearm in voluntary time.....

Can someone answer this question? During the standard drop tests, do they examine/function check the guns between drops?

quote:

Originally posted by USCO160:
Yea I agree a loaded magazine adds weight which puts more force on the trigger. I still stand the fact that Sig denied the problem and then goes "Ok we'll fix it" is upsetting to me. Anyway, I hope sig makes this replacement painless and it would be nice if I could pick one up rather than send it in. The "Voluntary" upgrade leaves me to believe sig with return the firearm in voluntary time.....

I could be way off here, but my gut feeling tells me that if the issue is inertial trigger movement, then the mass of the magazine should have no effect on that. That is assuming of course that the issue is due to what Omaha assumed with the momentum/inertia of the trigger's own weight being the deciding factor.

That said, it would be a good idea to test both scenarios in case there are other variables at play.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
Childish behavior

A collection of his posts on this thread, which would normally be considered a waste of space, would make a great Sticky entitled "How To Get Banned From SigForum."