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P320 Drop Safety in Question (Formerly DPD Recall thread) Login/Join 
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by arcwelder76:
Looking for a result and fiddling til you get it might be climate science, but those two things alone do not Science make.

I didn't say these people weren't credible, but the ability to produce a given result doesn't necessarily denote credibility. Because who knows what editing or other inducements occurred. Is this really something that happens 100% of the time on the first try? That a bunch of people have managed to do it still doesn't tell me how much time and effort it takes to induce.

A bunch of people on youtube, Underwriters Laboratories it doesn't make.

Simply saying that a bunch of people dropping a pistol at a certain angle, a certain number of times, causes it to go off in a certain number of those drops, still means that it's a drop safety issue. One that occurs under very specific circumstances. Circumstances that weren't brought to light during other drop tests, which is a puzzler. Perhaps the way pistols are drop tested should be updated.

If the pistol were found to just go off by itself, that would be something. Such pistols have existed.

What concerns me, is the 3 cases of drop safety failure, in the real world. People figuring out how to induce drop safety failure, versus it actually accidentally occuring is a relevant distinction.

So, if 3 out of 500,000 were hundreds or even thousands out of that 500,000 that would be of great concern. I'll take into account the years the pistol has been out, and the number in service, against the actual number of accidental drop failures. Then I'll weight that as to whether to be worried/upset.



How many of those 500,000 pistols will ever be dropped or would ever be expected to? I've never dropped a gun, and I bet most people try like hell not to. Yet we have drop safety tests for the fraction of a percentage of guns for which it does occur, and I believe for good reason.
 
Posts: 872 | Registered: October 08, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by arcwelder76:


What concerns me, is the 3 cases of drop safety failure, in the real world. People figuring out how to induce drop safety failure, versus it actually accidentally occuring is a relevant distinction.

So, if 3 out of 500,000 were hundreds or even thousands out of that 500,000 that would be of great concern. I'll take into account the years the pistol has been out, and the number in service, against the actual number of accidental drop failures. Then I'll weight that as to whether to be worried/upset.


For the statistical analysis to be meaningful you wouldn't calculate the # of discharges in relation to the total number of pistols manufactured. You'd calculate it by the taking the # of pistols that have discharged from being dropped, from the total # of pistols that have been dropped.

Only in France could you use the total # of pistols. Wink


Joe
 
Posts: 2401 | Location: Az | Registered: October 28, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
The Whack-Job
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Maybe a lanyard loop on the grip frame and an attached wristband would solve the whole "problem". Wink


7+1 Rounds of hope and change
 
Posts: 4231 | Registered: August 13, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Go ahead punk, make my day
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Blackwater:
quote:
Originally posted by arcwelder76:


What concerns me, is the 3 cases of drop safety failure, in the real world. People figuring out how to induce drop safety failure, versus it actually accidentally occuring is a relevant distinction.

So, if 3 out of 500,000 were hundreds or even thousands out of that 500,000 that would be of great concern. I'll take into account the years the pistol has been out, and the number in service, against the actual number of accidental drop failures. Then I'll weight that as to whether to be worried/upset.


For the statistical analysis to be meaningful you wouldn't calculate the # of discharges in relation to the total number of pistols manufactured. You'd calculate it by the taking the # of pistols that have discharged from the # of pistols that have been actually dropped.

Only in France could you use the total # of pistols. Wink
Spot on. Big Grin
 
Posts: 45798 | Registered: July 12, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Blackwater:
Only in France could you use the total # of pistols. Wink



I see what you did there..."Nice" Wink
 
Posts: 872 | Registered: October 08, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by arcwelder76:


What concerns me, is the 3 cases of drop safety failure, in the real world. People figuring out how to induce drop safety failure, versus it actually accidentally occuring is a relevant distinction.

So, if 3 out of 500,000 were hundreds or even thousands out of that 500,000 that would be of great concern. I'll take into account the years the pistol has been out, and the number in service, against the actual number of accidental drop failures. Then I'll weight that as to whether to be worried/upset.


It is my understanding that there are roughly 500,000 P320s in the "wild." Of those there were 3 or 4 (depending on which sig slides you go by) incidents that have been REPORTED to, and confirmed by Sig. I know that I for one almost never believe anyone who claims a gun just went off when they dropped it.

I guess the missing link is we don't know:
a) the odds of someone dropping a pistol in general from heights of over 3-4 feet.
b) the odds of the pistol landing on the slide. I don't think anyone has ever tested pistols to see what their most likely drop orientation is based on their weight/balance
c) the odds that both a and b occur while a person is in the "danger zone."

Of course the odds of all three happening only yields the odds of a SOLD pistol accidentally hurting anyone. I guess more relevant to know would be to know the odds of a dropped p320 discharging in real life... which nobody knows.

We know the stars aligned and a,b,c all occurred at least once. Intellectually I know that the odds of someone getting hurt in this manner are slim. As a registered Klutz who also has small children, I would choose to just reach for one of my other pistols though till it was fixed. I'm also curious now to see if any of my other pistols have similar vulnerabilities. It strikes me that the testing methodologies were flawed.

Thats the major downside of the vise/rig based-testing... you can drop the pistol a million times muzzle down EXACTLY the same, yet you'll completely miss the malfunction that in retrospect is obvious. The power of the internet and the lack of testing equipment used turned out to be a boon in this case.


The same issue often plagues those of us in the software world. Quality Assurance testers follow scripts to try to find software bugs. If they never go off script, they'll never find the massive bug lurking just off the testing path. Luckily as Linus' law states: "Given enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow." That goodness for the internet.
 
Posts: 331 | Location: OH | Registered: September 10, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Go ahead punk, make my day
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Agreed - a good 50-75% of those pistols (or any pistol for that matter) never see the light of day, sequestered into safes, sock drawers, or in the top of closets, to be fondled (unloaded) and taken to the range once a year.

It's like saying your vehicle airbags aren't that defective, when most of the cars are never leave their garages or have any chance of being in an accident than might possibly use the airbags.
 
Posts: 45798 | Registered: July 12, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by lordhamster:

I guess the missing link is we don't know:
a) the odds of someone dropping a pistol in general from heights of over 3-4 feet.
b) the odds of the pistol landing on the slide. I don't think anyone has ever tested pistols to see what their most likely drop orientation is based on their weight/balance
c) the odds that both a and b occur while a person is in the "danger zone."



It really doesn't matter. It's been demonstrated enough times by youtube experts that the the pistol can be made to discharge by striking the rear of the with a moderate blow...something that might happen in the holster or in the hand under the right circumstances. Ever had the pistol catch on a door, table, corner, etc? Ever seat the slide if slightly out of battery with a wrap with the palm to the rear of the slide? Lots of possibilities.

Of course, we're a day away from Sigs announcement about what they intend to do. I'm content to wait a day and refrain from pointless speculation.
 
Posts: 6650 | Registered: September 13, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by XinTX:
......I'm not knowledgeable on those ANSI test standards.


See link to SAAMI Web site in post:

https://sigforum.com/eve/forums...540045824#2540045824


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Posts: 4581 | Location: Pennsylvania | Registered: June 29, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Go ahead punk, make my day
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So what are we going to see Monday?

Voluntary recall

(1) SIG pays the whole smash, shipping and fixing

Or

(2) SIG pays for the fixing and arranges shipping, but customer pays for discounted shipping ($60)

Or

(3) Customer gets stuck with the whole bill.


I vote #2 w/ Swag as free T-shirt or hat plus stickers, but No free magazine.
 
Posts: 45798 | Registered: July 12, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Another big item to think about is IF the work needed will apply to the 320 regardless of original or second hand ownership.

I would think that it would have a huge impact on resale values.

I've looked at several guns over the years that had old recalls on them, a Ruger most recently and when I called Ruger and spoke with them they could tell me if the gun had the recall work done or not and it hadn't and wanted to set it up for the recall work to be done at their expense.
 
Posts: 17332 | Registered: December 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Go ahead punk, make my day
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Yeah, while Ruger is the king of recalls, the side benefit is they know how to do it right. Wink
 
Posts: 45798 | Registered: July 12, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Blackwater:
Sig stopped current production of the P320.
Highly likely that all future P320s will have the so-called "enhanced trigger package".

Now, ask yourself why?

Can't wait until Monday and here the rest of the excuses Roll Eyes


The answer is in SIG's statement. They kept the explanation simple - just one sentence.

quote:
Recent events indicate that dropping the P320 beyond U.S. standards for safety may cause an unintentional discharge.
 
Posts: 625 | Location: North Carolina | Registered: March 25, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
So what are we going to see Monday?

Voluntary recall

(1) SIG pays the whole smash, shipping and fixing

Or

(2) SIG pays for the fixing and arranges shipping, but customer pays for discounted shipping ($60)

Or

(3) Customer gets stuck with the whole bill.


I vote #2 w/ Swag as free T-shirt or hat plus stickers, but No free magazine.




IMHO, unless they go with #1, it will be over for Sig with a lot of people.
 
Posts: 386 | Location: Ohio | Registered: November 01, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
So what are we going to see Monday?
Voluntary recall

(1) SIG pays the whole smash, shipping and fixing Or

(2) SIG pays for the fixing and arranges shipping, but customer pays for discounted shipping ($60) Or

(3) Customer gets stuck with the whole bill......

Or
(4) Customer decides to do nothing.

Like me, with a January 1015 P320FS .40 with GGI PELT installed. Only pistol I own that will shoot as well as my Wilson Pro. Don't want them to screw it up. Among other things, we don't know if Sig will follow their standard policy re aftermarket parts. I really don't need them removing my perfectly regulated Heinie sights and superb GGI PELT trigger.

If the forensics of the problem are eventually documented and some significant risk exists that is likely to affect my P320, I'm open to reconsideration. However, under the current murky circumstances, I'm leaving mine alone. At this point, we don't know what the failure rate with this (or any other) "test" is and whether it would even affect a given owner's P320.

Also, I'm sure there is an engineering term for this, but I don't know what it is. Process: (1) Replace a component to "fix" a problem that may or may not exist in a specific pistol. (b) Specific pistol that actually had NO problem now has a new one. (c) The new problem is created by the "fix" that was intended to solve the first problem.

Even after the Grand Sig Announcement, we still aren't going to know much.


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Posts: 4581 | Location: Pennsylvania | Registered: June 29, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Go ahead punk, make my day
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quote:
Originally posted by Nipper:

(4) Customer decides to do nothing.

I don't think SIG will say much about that, nor do you need to wait for Monday to make that selection. Wink
 
Posts: 45798 | Registered: July 12, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by pedropcola:
What does the F5 key do?

It refreshes the Web page in your browser. You can refresh using your browser refresh control or the universal F5 refresh key. I was around during the stone age DOS computer era. Command keys and DOS commands are old friends. Smile

I'm not certain what the poster who mentioned it was referring to though.


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Posts: 4581 | Location: Pennsylvania | Registered: June 29, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by RX-79G:
4 in 500,000 is a silly number - most of those guns sit in a safe all day.


Really? How many? The first number is still 4. Claiming less than 500,000 are used is irrelevant.

At what failure rate should people be concerned? if 100 people in the USA carry and use the pistol every day, that's a failure rate of 4%. if 1000 do I'd say that's a ridiculously small number of pistols in use out of 500,000. How many do you think sit in safes? Even if it's half, 249,996 pistols being used without incident isn't bad. how about 4 out of 125,000? It's still not a crisis.

People are using auto makers as an example, shall we look at injuries/fatalities and figure out how many cars are used daily? Chances are the total number of injuries and deaths connected to design flaws in automobiles is alarming, without comparing total cars to those actually used daily.

My point of bringing up leftist gun control nonsense, is that this is about perspective and actual solutions. If you're balls-out at 4 out of X number where we know somewhere between 4 and 500,000 pistols are being used daily, you're no better than people who want a 0 murder rate and won't hear any rational explanation or solution.

I've already spent some time using and carrying the P320c, and if this were an issue so common as to be experienced without intentionally inducing it, as in 100% of people who accidentally drop the pistol get a fired bullet, well, I'd be on board with the upset.

SIG needs to fix this, and frankly they're committing suicide if the fix/parts/installation isn't free. Shipping? free shipping would be some goodwill on their part.


Arc.
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Posts: 26607 | Location: On fire, off the shoulder of Orion | Registered: June 09, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by gc70:

The answer is in SIG's statement. They kept the explanation simple - just one sentence.

[QUOTE]Recent events indicate that dropping the P320 beyond U.S. standards for safety may cause an unintentional discharge.


So Monday's statement basically should come down to:
"Sig is meeting US Standards for safety. Sig will offer an enhanced trigger for customers desiring it to exceed the US Safety standards. For those wishing to upgrade, please call Sig for pricing and details on how to have this work performed"

I was afraid of that, but a good move by Sig with pending litigation.
Giving away trigger enhancements or acknowledging this as a recall would be disastrous for pending litigation.


Joe
 
Posts: 2401 | Location: Az | Registered: October 28, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
quote:
Originally posted by Nipper:

(4) Customer decides to do nothing.

I don't think SIG will say much about that, nor do you need to wait for Monday to make that selection. Wink

You're right. Regardless of what we see, the Sig lawyers will not be happy with those who choose option (4).

Unfortunately, with stuff like this, the lawyers take over. One of the reasons you can't get straight answers. Sign of the times.


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Posts: 4581 | Location: Pennsylvania | Registered: June 29, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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