quote:

Originally posted by mbinky:

Got any proof? Love to see it. Because this goes against EVERYTHING I have ever seen in government testing.

Do your own research. Obviously you didnt follow the selection process or the subsequent appeal. Phase 2 was never begun. The government said there was no need. The price was so far divergent that the process was cut short, and the proving and testing left undone.

Look it up yourself.

quote:

Originally posted by Sparkyk:

quote:

Originally posted by mbinky:

quote:

Originally posted by Operations:
but for 3 years they never tried a drop test?

It passed ALL of the commercial (ANSI, ETC) drop tests. This flaw was discovered during a drop not covered in standardized testing.

According to some on the Pistol Forum other brands have failed this new drop test as well.

I think it is very likely that we will see an addition to the drop testing protocol for all handguns.

I have heard this as well. That the testing for this and other firearms don't include the drop configuration that's being discussed here. Anyone know for certain? I'm not knowledgeable on those ANSI test standards.

quote:

Originally posted by RX-79G:

Are you or are you not aware that SIG has released multiple updates and generations of every gun they make, and the P320 is already on its second redesign?

So why do you think a company that is already redesigning the gun wouldn't offer that redesign to the Army so they don't have to produce two different pistols in one factory?


Or do you believe that SIG gets everything perfect on the first try and you don't know what I'm talking about?

I know what you said. "The proposed engineering change for the M17 wasn't going to cost SIG anything"

Sig gets nothing perfect. MPX, MCX, P320. In fact it's becoming the norm for Sig products, when it hadn't been in the past.

Now pay attention....
Sig is known for releasing less than stellar products and then selling things like "Enhanced Triggers", Gen 2 upgrades for the MPX etc.
It's the agile model for design/production. Get it 90% and release iterative changes and charge for them. That is why they were initially uncommitted on who would pay for the "voluntary upgrade". It's called revenue streaming. But when they call it a recall, then they are on the hook for cost.

When was he last time HK put out a product and had a "Enhanced trigger" package offered from the factory? Glock?

Of course they would offer a redesign to the Big Green. To think that it was without cost is naive.
The cost will be absorbed though sales of "upgraded" products to civilians. bwhahahaha!! And of course US Taxpayers.

And Sig knew it wasn't drop safe. Even Cohen stated "no pistol is drop safe". - FACT


As it sits right now and at the risk of reputation/brand cost, Sig will likely state on Monday "Sig will offer the voluntary upgrade for free".
I'm almost certain they won't change the verbiage to "recall", shipping costs may be left to the consumer and Sig USA will likely defer to the P320 passing US Safety standards.

I don't have any skin in this game since I no longer own a 320. I don't drop my guns so even if I had them still I likely wouldn't be too upset. It is nice to know that if you ever hurt your trigger finger you can always shoot a the bad guys by smacking a hammer against the striker plate.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/...gn=Weekly+Newsletter

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:
Look it up yourself.

Wow really? Please point me in the direction of the official test report or any official documents verifying what you just said. Not some internet speculation. Can you describe what "Phase Two" is? What is "Phase One? Do you have a copy of the signed reports and contract? Thanks.

Now if the .gov indeed did skip testing it was because either one entrant was so far ahead of the others it would not be cost worthy to continue, or the others did not meet the requirements to keep on testing (i.e they were failing tests). They don't just stop becaue they like the price. If price was all that mattered why even have tests? Just give the contract to Hi Point.

Curious what happens Monday. I probably won't send mine in for at least 6 months. Give the rush time to die down. Been two years since I shot it anyway, whats a few more months?

Here is a link to an official test report. Proof House Ulm perfomed it based on TR2008 specs written for service pistols in Europe. Proof House Ulm is an Independent testing facility owned by the State of Baden Württemberg.

https://www.beschussamt-ulm.de...t/index.php?lvl=2284

Here is the link to TR200http://www.pfa.nrw.de/PTI_Internet/pti-intern.dhpol.local/WG/Regelungen/Pistolen/TR_01_08/TR-Pistole_31-01-08.pdf

how the drop test has to be performed is listed in TR2008
http://www.pfa.nrw.de/PTI_Inte...Pistole_31-01-08.pdf

The function of trigger and the firing pin safety can be seen in Patent: EP2228616 (A1). The firing pin safety used is the improved version of the Sauer-Ludwig patent already used in any other SIGSauer pistol of German design.

quote:

Originally posted by XinTX:
I have heard this as well. That the testing for this and other firearms don't include the drop configuration that's being discussed here. Anyone know for certain? I'm not knowledgeable on those ANSI test standards.

For whatever reason, this particular drop angle is not included in the standard drop tests.

Everyone knows how the left is always obsessing over "30,000 gun deaths, correct?

When there is a lot more to the story, like 20,000 of those being suicides, and the numbers of guns, gun owners, and lawful uses, correct?

Such that in a nation of some 320,000,000 a homicide rate of about 12,000 is the fact of the matter. Yet on the left, that perspective and any other factors that are a part of the issue aren't even heard or considered.

Wouldn't it be great if the left would hear reasonable arguments, and participate in a solution?

The people who have gotten all upset over this, at best lack perspective, and at worst have some sort of bias against SIG. Much of the outrage I've read, seems as if this is the first time that person has heard of a manufacturing/mechanical flaw with a firearm.

Should SIG fix this issue for free in all affected pistols? Absolutely. But the reality remains that there were only 3 naturally occurring accidental drop failures out of some 500,000 pistols. Add to this, that generally people aren't dropping pistols during normal safe usage and handling.

The severity of this issue, and the accusations of lies, corporate malfeasance, and other imaginations, have been blown ridiculously out of proportion.

When should people actually be angry?

- if SIG does nothing

- if they don't make a drop safe solution free

As far as being upset over what SIG allegedly knew when, who said and knew what, etc. etc, all that is recreational outrage at best. Certainly while it's no more than rumor and speculation.

It is naive, or dishonest, to say that no other gun makers have had problems, or handled those problems badly. The stupid part of this has a lot to do with it being 2017 and the presence of social media.

Does a company deserve to be pressured to fix something? Surely. Are we going to take an equally big shit on the next gun maker that has this issue? Certainly for people who appear to have an axe to grind with SIG, I'd hope that their energy would be equally applied to Glock or HK for example. Would it? Was it?

quote:

Originally posted by RX-79G:
Like I said, the main issue with both SIG and Bruce is whether they are handling the issue with grace or not.

Expecting the problem to be remedied, is not unreasonable. But, "with grace?" Seriously? Bruce needs to behave like the Pope, and you expect any large gun corporation to handle an issue like this with 100% perfection?

This expectation of one man, and the idea that anyone has "lost faith" in the P320 over this, is mind boggling.

It's fascinating that when one company faces a mechanical problem with a pistol, it's a routine recall/parts swap. When another does, it's an outrageous scandal that destroys reputations and "faith" in a company or product. Is this dependent on the severity of the problem, or the name on the side of the gun? Since this wasn't the first time a company has had a parts problem and won't be the last, we can compare.

I'll just wait for my P320 to get fixed, 3 incidents out of 500,000 units doesn't concern me. If the rate of failure were naturally higher as in true accidents and not people throwing guns at concrete on youtube, then I would find cause for concern.

I also don't mean to say that no one is allowed to be bummed out, but the reaction should scale with the problem. SIG deserves to feel some pressure, no doubt. Getting lathered up this much over some drop failures doesn't leave room for when a manufacturing/design defect were to cause numerous failures/fatalities.

In summary, if we expect the left to hear us when we ask for them to be reasonable about the solution to ~12,000 murders out of ~320,000,000 people a year, then to expect that people also be rational and reasonable about a documented failure of 3 out of 500,000 units and its solution seems fair enough.

If people are just going to keep insisting on being lathered up, well they've borrowed that tactic from the outrage mill that the left has become. Being upset isn't actually an opinion in itself, and when no explanation is good enough or solution fast enough, something is wrong.

Asking that the guns work safely, absolutely. Asking for "grace?" ..... Has any company met this standard? Have you ever had to deal with Apple or Microsoft, or a host of other companies? Examples of shitty corporate behavior during some sort of crisis are legion. Not to mention day to day customer service dongery.

As far as Bruce Gray's behavior and reputation, I don't think those people criticizing it would be satisfied no matter how he handled himself. I'm just so glad everyone with a keyboard and some free time knows exactly what they would have done.

Shouldn't we get those dangerous Series 70 1911s recalled too? IIRC they are not drop safe either. And with all these folks dropping their guns all the time.........

quote:

Originally posted by 18DAI:
Shouldn't we get those dangerous Series 70 1911s recalled too? IIRC they are not drop safe either. And with all these folks dropping their guns all the time.........

That's whay I carry a 3953

Oh, big "LIKE" button for Arc

quote:

Originally posted by mbinky

Oh, big "LIKE" button for Arc

+1 for me! Very well put!

quote:

Originally posted by arcwelder76:
If the rate of failure were naturally higher as in true accidents and not people throwing guns at concrete on youtube, then I would find cause for concern.

I really don't think "throwing guns at concrete" is a fair characterization of the tests we've seen over the course of the week. In fact, that statement is emblematic of the kind of minimization of a true issue we've seen from day one.

I will be taking my P320 to a USPSA match this weekend as I have been for years, nothing new. What I kind of expect is to be challenged by others who will be in fear for the lives being in the mere presence of a P320. I likely will need to lock the P320 in the car and shoot a different pistol which I will prudently have at the ready. We shall see what we shall see.

I would be interesting to hear how others make out shooting matches this weekend with P320s?

quote:

Originally posted by lordhamster:

quote:

Originally posted by arcwelder76:
If the rate of failure were naturally higher as in true accidents and not people throwing guns at concrete on youtube, then I would find cause for concern.

I really don't think "throwing guns at concrete" is a fair characterization of the tests we've seen over the course of the week. In fact, that statement is emblematic of the kind of minimization of a true issue we've seen from day one.

Is it science when you're looking for a result and push until you get it? Is figuring out how to induce failure actually a test? Are a bunch of random people on youtube credible because you like the result?

3 actual accidental failure under real world usage, out of some 500,000 units, correct? Minimization my ass. I'm not saying nothing should be done or that there is no problem. I'm pointing out that there is perspective askew.

quote:

Oh, big "LIKE" button for Arc Smile

100% certainty.

However, it does nothing for my hope of someone panicking enough to sell me a P320 .40 S&W compact with PELT trigger at a substantially reduced price.

So I'll add this thought. A P320 .40 S&W compact with PELT trigger dropped in Guam by North Korea will start WWIII! Especially on 09/23/2017. Are you panicked enough now! Sell it to me while you still have the chance! My offer starts at a cheeseburger and a soda.

quote:

Originally posted by Sparkyk:

According to some on the Pistol Forum other brands have failed this new drop test as well.

I think it is very likely that we will see an addition to the drop testing protocol for all handguns.

I hope so. From what I have seen, it doesn't appear that severe manipulation or severe inducement are required to replicate these failures. They appear fairly repeatable. I'm actually astonished that a rear-slide-drop test isn't a requirement already. Wasn't this drop angle so pervasive as to lead the Germans to cut a slot in the P6 hammer that would indicate such a drop?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ether,

quote:

Originally posted by arcwelder76:

quote:

Originally posted by lordhamster:

quote:

Originally posted by arcwelder76:
If the rate of failure were naturally higher as in true accidents and not people throwing guns at concrete on youtube, then I would find cause for concern.

I really don't think "throwing guns at concrete" is a fair characterization of the tests we've seen over the course of the week. In fact, that statement is emblematic of the kind of minimization of a true issue we've seen from day one.

Is it science when you're looking for a result and push until you get it? Is figuring out how to induce failure actually a test? Are a bunch of random people on youtube credible because you like the result?

NOBODY, not a single person on this thread EVER claimed that these tests were "scientific." Frankly they don't need to be. If some bubba in a garage can gingerly drop the pistol from a height of four feet (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8Oz6krEH_I) and then have that same experience replicated by dozens of others with such ease, the fact that there is a problem is indisputable. At this point with dozens of testers replicating the result...including Sig... I don't know how you can still be trying to argue "credibility." Frankly it doesn't matter who likes what... the fact is the pistol fires when dropped as per the videos. That is now an an established fact.

What I find absolutely fascinating is that we have individuals on this forum who on august 7th and 8th dismissed the issue of drop safety out of hand. Some went so far as calling anyone making such a claim "trolls" (see page 6 of this thread). Once the proof was insurmountable, almost to a man these same folks who dismissed the possibility out of hand shifted gears into minimization. Combinations of statements like (and I'm paraphrasing here): "I never drop my gun," "All guns fire when dropped," etc

Like I said before, I don't have a dog in this race. I personally thought the P250/P320 with the interchangeable chasis was the most brilliant design ever for a polymer handgun...nevertheless I sold mine a while back when I decided to switch to all DA/SA. If I still had my P320, I'd keep her in the safe till it got fixed, just to be on the safe side. But that is a personal decision.

I fully understand and support your decision to make your own personal risk assessment. I get where you are coming from if you say you aren't worried. That is fine... but please don't try to justify your personal decision by trying to claim that the dozens of test videos aren't credible.

quote:

Originally posted by arcwelder76:
As far as being upset over what SIG allegedly knew when, who said and knew what, etc. etc, all that is recreational outrage at best.

"Recreational outrage" I love it! Describes a lot of what I've been seeing in this thread perfectly.

And a big +1 to the rest of your comments, as well.

quote:

Originally posted by arcwelder76:
Is it science when you're looking for a result and push until you get it? Is figuring out how to induce failure actually a test?

Uhm... ya kinda missed on those, Arc, for the answer to both is "Yes."

"Hmmm... There are rumours the P320 isn't drop safe, and a lawsuit in the works. I wonder if it's not drop-safe, after all, and if it can legitimately be made to fire when dropped?" That's what the ANSI and other tests seek to discover. So some people set about getting an answer to that question. It would have been science/testing regardless of the outcome.

The question should be: Is what we've seen done good science/testing? E.g.: One might reasonably argue that throwing the pistol at a hard surface such that it hits at just such an angle is poor science and testing, as that would not be reflective of a reasonable, real-world scenario. But these guys appear to have been simply dropping P320s from a reasonable height, such that they'd land on a typical hard surface in an orientation that is as likely as any other.

I'm disappointed, but I'm not getting all angst-y about it. Until shown otherwise: I expect Sig will DTRT.

Looking for a result and fiddling til you get it might be climate science, but those two things alone do not Science make.

I didn't say these people weren't credible, but the ability to produce a given result doesn't necessarily denote credibility. Because who knows what editing or other inducements occurred. Is this really something that happens 100% of the time on the first try? That a bunch of people have managed to do it still doesn't tell me how much time and effort it takes to induce.

A bunch of people on youtube, Underwriters Laboratories it doesn't make.

Simply saying that a bunch of people dropping a pistol at a certain angle, a certain number of times, causes it to go off in a certain number of those drops, still means that it's a drop safety issue. One that occurs under very specific circumstances. Circumstances that weren't brought to light during other drop tests, which is a puzzler. Perhaps the way pistols are drop tested should be updated.

If the pistol were found to just go off by itself, that would be something. Such pistols have existed.

What concerns me, is the 3 cases of drop safety failure, in the real world. People figuring out how to induce drop safety failure, versus it actually accidentally occuring is a relevant distinction.

So, if 3 out of 500,000 were hundreds or even thousands out of that 500,000 that would be of great concern. I'll take into account the years the pistol has been out, and the number in service, against the actual number of accidental drop failures. Then I'll weight that as to whether to be worried/upset.

Sig stopped current production of the P320.
Highly likely that all future P320s will have the so-called "enhanced trigger package".

Now, ask yourself why?

Can't wait until Monday and here the rest of the excuses