quote:

Originally posted by Black92LX:

quote:

Dropping a gun isn't a "use" anymore than crushing my car's crumple zones is a use. But it is a necessity for a handheld lethal weapon that is constantly being handled and released from heights identical to the drop fire height.

That is EXACTLTY my point how many people die on a daily basis in vehicles that have been tested to or beyond the industry standard??
Far more than anyone one dropping firearms. How many people have died from dropping a 320 I am guessing zero and sounds like only 1 person has been injured out of how many are carried and handled everyday.

The fact is it is going to happen there is never going to be a gun that in some scenerio is not going to accidentally fire.

Is it a concern sure but something to be so overly concerned about I would not buy one. Nope, not at that point. Now if it were a scenario where the gun could fire when I drop the slide and this was a frequently repeatable scenario sure.
But dropping which rarely happens and has to be dropped and land at a certain angle at that. No worries here.

I dont understand the logic behind telling us that you've dropped a gun twice and also not seeming to be concerned about the 320 having issues. I would assume that you'd be the type of person to understand exactly how important a gun being drop safe is. Just like the other poster that minimizes it then mentions how he dropped a loaded gun at about the same angle that a 320 would be possible to go off at, but his HK did not go off. You all should be the poster kids for why its so important.

quote:

Originally posted by RX-79G:
I'm sorry, I really haven't summed up the real problem:

SIG should say "The P320 can drop fire. Discontinue use until we can recall your firearm."

Instead SIG is saying "Keep shootin', pardner! We have a free upgrade if you feel like it."


ANYONE who is harmed by a non-upgraded dropped P320 has every right from here on out to sue SIG for 100% liability because SIG says it is okay for a gun to not be drop safe.

Do you suppose any actual owners if P320's might gain your forgiveness for continuing to shoot their firearms, even though the sky is falling?

I don't suppose most of us much care.

Certainly if Sig offers an "upgrade," I shall avail. In the interim, I shall most likely purchase additional P320's, and my newly purchased on will not be a safe queen. The horror.

Can you believe that aircraft are still built with no autopilots, cars that don't fill with expanding foam when a tree is struck, motorcycles with only two goddamn wheels, and there are house cats out there that still have claws?

It's only a matter of time until every sharp corner is padded with bubble wrap and fast food coms pre-blended so we don't choke on a chicken bone or kernel or corn, but in the interim, not everything in this world is 100% safe.

That continues to include dropped firearms.

quote:

Originally posted by Bigboreshooter:

quote:

Originally posted by BE Mike:

I'm probably old enough to be your father, son. I've been around the block a time or two.

You didn't seem to learn much.

That was so fast, I didn't get time for a response.

I don't drop a gun often, but when I do, I drop my Glock.

quote:

Originally posted by RX-79G:

quote:

Originally posted by wolffy88:

quote:

Originally posted by RX-79G:
Does anyone have perspective on why SIG chose to depart so much from more tried and true lockwork designs with their first striker gun?

Likely to defeat the trigger pulling when dissembling.

The 320 is a fantastic design. But the company is less than stellar anymore.

Given this thread and thread about sear resets, why do you think the lockwork is fantastic? The basic premise is a single action striker.

quote:

It was mainly compatible with the 250 chassis.

That seems more on point.

Well, I honestly meant before the last two days or so. The sear reset is a non issue if you are talking about the "double click". It's been asked and answered tons here and elsewhere. The basic premise of a single action yields a fantastic trigger, with before the latest news, no safety impact, and as I stated earlier, a safer design by bypassing the need to pull the trigger on takedown. It's also very easy to work on, and a simple polish job can give a sub 5 lbs, maybe even 4 lbs trigger pull, add a graygubs trigger and you can get into the 3 lbs range. I have successfully and safely gotten a 2.10 lbs pull when getting into the FCU.

Before yesterday, the FCU and all parts of the "lockwork" were without issue.

quote:

My car is actually under a recall notice for the Tanaka Airbag failure where an over pressured airbag component can turn the airbag into a mini-grenade. I have been notified of the recall and I will DAMN WELL have it fixed as soon as possible. I don't just say... what the hell, no car is 100% safe.

So you have stopped driving the vehicle????
Never did I say not to get it fixed if a fix is found.
My point is no gun is ever going to be 100% risk free from an acidental discharge it is just not going to happen. The gun is not defective per se. It was tested to industry standards and passed. The gun can possibly fire outside of it's intended use. Scenerios can be found with enough time and effort more many guns.
As for not agreeing with my vehicle scenarios that is fine. It fits. There is an industry standard of tests that are done but in repeatable scenarios outside of those standards people still die from accidents in them that does not make them defective.

quote:

Originally posted by EmpireState:

quote:

Originally posted by Black92LX:

quote:

Dropping a gun isn't a "use" anymore than crushing my car's crumple zones is a use. But it is a necessity for a handheld lethal weapon that is constantly being handled and released from heights identical to the drop fire height.

That is EXACTLTY my point how many people die on a daily basis in vehicles that have been tested to or beyond the industry standard??
Far more than anyone one dropping firearms. How many people have died from dropping a 320 I am guessing zero and sounds like only 1 person has been injured out of how many are carried and handled everyday.

The fact is it is going to happen there is never going to be a gun that in some scenerio is not going to accidentally fire.

Is it a concern sure but something to be so overly concerned about I would not buy one. Nope, not at that point. Now if it were a scenario where the gun could fire when I drop the slide and this was a frequently repeatable scenario sure.
But dropping which rarely happens and has to be dropped and land at a certain angle at that. No worries here.

I dont understand the logic behind telling us that you've dropped a gun twice and also not seeming to be concerned about the 320 having issues. I would assume that you'd be the type of person to understand exactly how important a gun being drop safe is. Just like the other poster that minimizes it then mentions how he dropped a loaded gun at about the same angle that a 320 would be possible to go off at, but his HK did not go off. You all should be the poster kids for why its so important.

Clearly you did not read my posts. I said yes it certainly is a concern but not nearly a concern enough for me not to purchase one. They find a fix that is good then someone else with enough time finds another scenario where the gun fires.
One will always be able to create scenarios that make guns go off when they really should

quote:

Originally posted by Black92LX:

quote:

My car is actually under a recall notice for the Tanaka Airbag failure where an over pressured airbag component can turn the airbag into a mini-grenade. I have been notified of the recall and I will DAMN WELL have it fixed as soon as possible. I don't just say... what the hell, no car is 100% safe.

So you have stopped driving the vehicle????
Never did I say not to get it fixed if a fix is found.
My point is no gun is ever going to be 100% risk free from an acidental discharge it is just not going to happen. The gun is not defective per se. It was tested to industry standards and passed. The gun can possibly fire outside of it's intended use. Scenerios can be found with enough time and effort more many guns.
As for not agreeing with my vehicle scenarios that is fine. It fits. There is an industry standard of tests that are done but in repeatable scenarios outside of those standards people still die from accidents in them that does not make them defective.

In regards to my car with the recall, no I have not driven it in months. Mostly because I work from home, or take a car service to the airport then off to client sites. If I do drive locally I'm generally driving the kids around in the wife's car. All that is besides the point. Car CRASHES and dropped pistols are about as different can be, I really don' think they are analogous in any meaningful way.

Regardless of the "standard" testing. Someone has luckily and accidentally stumbled upon an easily repeatable, very plausible vulnerability. Until it is fixed to my satisfaction, I would reach for other handguns in my safe first... and maybe delay any new purchase decisions for a week or two. Maybe that makes me a nervous nelly, but I prefer to be prudent. Maybe I'm more risk averse than you, or you have a differing risk assessment. At this point we will have to agree to disagree.

quote:

Originally posted by RX-79G:

quote:

Originally posted by Black92LX:

quote:

Dropping a gun isn't a "use" anymore than crushing my car's crumple zones is a use. But it is a necessity for a handheld lethal weapon that is constantly being handled and released from heights identical to the drop fire height.

That is EXACTLTY my point how many people die on a daily basis in vehicles that have been tested to or beyond the industry standard??
Far more than anyone one dropping firearms. How many people have died from dropping a 320 I am guessing zero and sounds like only 1 person has been injured out of how many are carried and handled everyday.

The fact is it is going to happen there is never going to be a gun that in some scenerio is not going to accidentally fire.

Is it a concern sure but something to be so overly concerned about I would not buy one. Nope, not at that point. Now if it were a scenario where the gun could fire when I drop the slide and this was a frequently repeatable scenario sure.
But dropping which rarely happens and has to be dropped and land at a certain angle at that. No worries here.

There is no comparison. People spend so much more time driving cars than handling loaded firearms that it is an insane comparison.

But the industry crash tests for cars test likely crashes at likely speeds. What about the SIG 30° drop do you find so unlikely?

I spend far more hours in a day carrying a firearm than I do driving a car. Even if you were to break it down by hours driven to deaths and hours of the 320 handled to deaths the car is going to give you a much higher possibility of death than handling a 320.
Yes, cars are crash tested at certain speeds and conditions and people still die everyday at those speeds and conditions.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. Some will let the 320 collect dust on the shelf and maybe some will dump theirs for cheap. Maybe I'll find one for cheap as I know my odds of dropping the 320 and at the particular angle is pretty slim.

quote:

Originally posted by Black92LX:
Yes, cars are crash tested at certain speeds and conditions and people still die everyday at those speeds and conditions.

quote:

Originally posted by Black92LX:

quote:

Originally posted by EmpireState:

quote:

Originally posted by Black92LX:

quote:

Dropping a gun isn't a "use" anymore than crushing my car's crumple zones is a use. But it is a necessity for a handheld lethal weapon that is constantly being handled and released from heights identical to the drop fire height.

That is EXACTLTY my point how many people die on a daily basis in vehicles that have been tested to or beyond the industry standard??
Far more than anyone one dropping firearms. How many people have died from dropping a 320 I am guessing zero and sounds like only 1 person has been injured out of how many are carried and handled everyday.

The fact is it is going to happen there is never going to be a gun that in some scenerio is not going to accidentally fire.

Is it a concern sure but something to be so overly concerned about I would not buy one. Nope, not at that point. Now if it were a scenario where the gun could fire when I drop the slide and this was a frequently repeatable scenario sure.
But dropping which rarely happens and has to be dropped and land at a certain angle at that. No worries here.

I dont understand the logic behind telling us that you've dropped a gun twice and also not seeming to be concerned about the 320 having issues. I would assume that you'd be the type of person to understand exactly how important a gun being drop safe is. Just like the other poster that minimizes it then mentions how he dropped a loaded gun at about the same angle that a 320 would be possible to go off at, but his HK did not go off. You all should be the poster kids for why its so important.

Clearly you did not read my posts. I said yes it certainly is a concern but not nearly a concern enough for me not to purchase one. They find a fix that is good then someone else with enough time finds another scenario where the gun fires.
One will always be able to create scenarios that make guns go off when they really should

I did read your posts. So the concern of being shot and killed (or shooting and killing anyone standing near you) with a dropped gun isn't enough for you choose a safer gun? You've dropped two guns already that did not go off. That all just doesn't make any sense to me.

quote:

Originally posted by EmpireState:

quote:

Originally posted by Black92LX:

quote:

Originally posted by EmpireState:

quote:

Originally posted by Black92LX:

quote:

Dropping a gun isn't a "use" anymore than crushing my car's crumple zones is a use. But it is a necessity for a handheld lethal weapon that is constantly being handled and released from heights identical to the drop fire height.

That is EXACTLTY my point how many people die on a daily basis in vehicles that have been tested to or beyond the industry standard??
Far more than anyone one dropping firearms. How many people have died from dropping a 320 I am guessing zero and sounds like only 1 person has been injured out of how many are carried and handled everyday.

The fact is it is going to happen there is never going to be a gun that in some scenerio is not going to accidentally fire.

Is it a concern sure but something to be so overly concerned about I would not buy one. Nope, not at that point. Now if it were a scenario where the gun could fire when I drop the slide and this was a frequently repeatable scenario sure.
But dropping which rarely happens and has to be dropped and land at a certain angle at that. No worries here.

I dont understand the logic behind telling us that you've dropped a gun twice and also not seeming to be concerned about the 320 having issues. I would assume that you'd be the type of person to understand exactly how important a gun being drop safe is. Just like the other poster that minimizes it then mentions how he dropped a loaded gun at about the same angle that a 320 would be possible to go off at, but his HK did not go off. You all should be the poster kids for why its so important.

Clearly you did not read my posts. I said yes it certainly is a concern but not nearly a concern enough for me not to purchase one. They find a fix that is good then someone else with enough time finds another scenario where the gun fires.
One will always be able to create scenarios that make guns go off when they really should

I did read your posts. So the concern of being shot and killed (or shooting and killing anyone standing near you) with a dropped gun isn't enough for you choose a safer gun? You've dropped two guns already that did not go off. That all just doesn't make any sense to me.

There are hundreds if not thousands of scenarios that one can come up with for any gun that when something happens that is not supposed to happen but can happen someone can get hurt or killed.
Given enough time to find scenerios there is likely not a gun out there that one can't be made to accidentally go off.

quote:

Originally posted by BE Mike:]I'm not into playing head games. Like I said, I'm new here and have not completely made up my mind.

You need to get out more Mikey.

But I see you've already imploded. I predicted that about a minute after reading your first post, to have it confirmed after your second.

This place isn't BARF or GlockTalk (as much as I like Glocks and have issues with SIG).

Run along now, run along.

Eagerly awaiting actual news of an actual fix from SIG on this. Til then the P320C MS that I picked up TODAY will sit in the safe. Today started as a great day - I've been waiting about two months for this gun to get in - but I checked in on this thread again before I picked it up.

Goddammit, SIG.

And since we're talking about Red Herrings, here's where this lands for me: I don't blame SIG for not figuring this out. It would have been nice if they would have, but this happens with machines. Smart designers design things and then in use, some weird stuff happens.

HOWEVER, the fact that the pistol can fail in this matter is completely unacceptable to me, and should be to everyone else. SIG should be doing absolutely nothing except ensuring that every single pistol that can fail in this manner gets back to the factory NOW and gets the fixed parts NOW and gets back to their loyal customers TEN MINUTES AGO and let the lawyers worry about covering their asses.

This "voluntary upgrade" bullshit is just that, bullshit, and so help me Christ if they ask me to pay a single nickel to bring my freshly acquired pistol back up to a drop safety standpoint that achieved Basic Human Right Status in the defensive firearms market something like twenty years ago, I'm going to lose my mind.

I can forgive them for not foreseeing it, but passing a single bit of burden onto their consumers is not something I'd forgive. They slipped up and they need to fix it.

quote:

Originally posted by Black92LX:
Given enough time to find scenerios there is likely not a gun out there that one can't be made to accidentally go off.

Sure. I get if you beat on a gun in a million different ways, you'll make it go off once maybe.

But dropping a weapon on it's ass resulting in repeated discharges?

Then to have the manufacturer apparently know about it, but deny it's importance until they were forced to with video evidence from multiple sources. "Oh, that's fake". "Oh, they threw the gun down." "oh, its impossible" was the party line.

Then "OH, we already have a solution for it, magically and it's not a problem anymore, or really a problem, because it would be legitimzing mishandling to make TRULY drop safe firearm, and shit we wouldn't want to do that"

Purposefully deceitful fuckers is what SIG USA is and how they have acted through this.

I feel bad for the situation aftermarket trigger providers may find themselves in now, since their products have also been shown susceptible to this issue, and some spent significant street cred standing up for SIG and it's "drop safe" P320 which wasn't.

And we'll end with some verses from Cohen, Ron, first of his name - "If you build it completely drop safe, you legitimize mishandling."

"If you build it completely drop safe, you legitimize mishandling."

I nominate that for stupidest firearm quote of the year, if not the decade.

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:

quote:

Originally posted by Black92LX:
Given enough time to find scenerios there is likely not a gun out there that one can't be made to accidentally go off.

Sure. I get if you beat on a gun in a million different ways, you'll make it go off once maybe.

But dropping a weapon on it's ass resulting in repeated discharges?

Then to have the manufacturer apparently know about it, but deny it's importance until they were forced to with video evidence from multiple sources. "Oh, that's fake". "Oh, they threw the gun down." "oh, its impossible" was the party line.

Then "OH, we already have a solution for it, magically and it's not a problem anymore, or really a problem, because it would be legitimzing mishandling to make TRULY drop safe firearm, and shit we wouldn't want to do that"

Purposefully deceitful fuckers is what SIG USA is and how they have acted through this.

I feel bad for the situation aftermarket trigger providers may find themselves in now, since their products have also been shown susceptible to this issue, and some spent significant street cred standing up for SIG and it's "drop safe" P320 which wasn't.

And we'll end with some verses from Cohen - "If you build it completely drop safe, you legitimize mishandling."

Man, you are not going to convince folks who have made up their minds, no matter what.

Btw, which group do you think SIG loves? The "much ado about nothing" group? Or, "This is a real concern" group?

quote:

Originally posted by 12131:
Man, you are not going to convince folks who have made up their minds, no matter what.

Oh, the fanbois will continue to fanboi, but I really feel sorry for GGI / Apex and others who invested time and credibility standing up for this.

Those are the real casualties IMO, in addition to the cop that SIG shot.

quote:

Btw, which group do you think SIG loves? The "much ado about nothing" group? Or, "This is a real concern" group?

Neither. They love the $$$$, safety be damned.

I just love the Ronnie was so stupid to say something SO stupid. It will live in eternity, along with all the other poor souls who marched with him.

Rhino, take a break

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
Rhino, take a break

Yessir.

cars and safety versus sig problem. The only realistic way to compare is this: The vehicle is sitting parked and turned off, with no one touching or manipulating the controls. The vehicle is inadvertently struck a certain way, starts/cranks up on its own due to the impact and runs over someone. That is the only true way to compare the two. Would you trust a vehicle that did that? Should the vehicle manufacturer step up and fix it?