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Glorious SPAM! |
I am saying we do not know. Has it been determined what or what not Sig knew? YOU are speculating, and interjecting opinion. Like you have been doing since the beginning. But feel free to show me your facts. You investigate air disasters correct? Do you let your opinion and speculation permeate your reports? Because when I used to write test reports, I only reported verifiable facts. | |||
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| Go ahead punk, make my day |
That is still a valid assumption. 
Agreed. | |||
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| Member |
As previously reported by Soldier Systems (emphasis added):
TOP 3-2-045 page 54 describes the drop test.
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Member |
I'm not sure we will know any more facts on Monday. Only what the Lawyers want you to know. I know SIG Won the Pricing bid but for the first time in history no phase II testing was done. Army said the bid was so low it would'nt have made difference in performance so they didn't test performance. I'm sure the fix is in but it's going to get ugly | |||
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| Member |
There are a lot of ifs, mights, and maybes right now. I don't think they were planning to ignore it altogether, and I'll give them the benefit of doubt on that. I THINK they hoped they had a sound fix for the military's issues that MIGHT work for the civilian and LE contingent. I think this thing might have just blown up in their face before they were comfortable releasing a promising but untested fix for the issues, which is very unfortunate for them. But if they even suspected there MIGHT be a problem (especially a safety problem) worth fixing, it's just unfortunate for the civilian and LE consumers that they continued to sell the same old pistols and not halt production until this finally did blow up in their face. | |||
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| Glorious SPAM! |
And you know this how? You do know that cost is only ONE factor in a contract correct? | |||
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| Member |
More than one of us suspect that pricing and engineering concessions might have been the determining factor here. | |||
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Member |
If I thought it was funny yes. How ridiculous of a question. There are design, RD and tooling costs in development of a new trigger. To suggest that it wouldn't have cost them anything to produce is the same ridiculous kind of assumption. Joe Back in Tx. | |||
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| Glorious SPAM! |
I am sure there are. I have personally been involved in many, many .gov tests at ATC, YTC, NATC, and other places. Cost has never been the detirmining factor in any test I have ever been apart of. Granted I tested ordnance and not small arms, but it is pretty much the same. People love to joke about the "lowest bidder" (been there, done that) but it really truely is a lot more. If it was all about cost the military would be carrying Kel Tec rifles and Hi Point pistols. To get invited to the party you need to first meet the desired specs and requirements (RFP). Then you go to test. During test and evaluation every single flaw is scrutinized, and long winded reports are written buy .gov "data collectors." These are put into "TIR's", or test incident reports. Every so often during the test the .gov test engineers and the vendor engineers get together in what are called "scoring conferences". This is where the TIR's are discussed, and any failures and possible improvements are taken care of. Remember, we love to say our equipment is "made by the lowest bidder", but in reality it is made by the bidder that can meet the requirements, can delver on time, and has a good price. And that price is not always the lowest. | |||
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Certified Plane Pusher |
So if I were in the market for a P320 Compact, do I wait or do I just buy one? Situation awareness is defined as a continuous extraction of environmental information, integration of this information with previous knowledge to form a coherent mental picture in directing further perception and anticipating future events. Simply put, situational awareness mean knowing what is going on around you. | |||
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| Member |
I'm sure some of us are just jaded by the M9 trials, where rumors were rampant...and that was even before the internet age. And some of us think, "Why should this be any different?" I like my Berettas, but I don't think it was as good as the P226. I'm not alone. Even before the internet, it sure sounded like price and politics factored into that trial. Still, just rumors and speculation mostly. Maybe Sig started those, and now it's their turn haha...I doubt it, but who knows. I do think Sig will eventually fix this (they kinda have to) and will hopefully even emerge with a product that I want to buy. | |||
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| Leatherneck |
I think I'd buy one now. I'd guess that with everyone sending theirs in for the changes it might be a while before new ones with the changes already done start hitting the shelves. That's just a guess though. Sig might have a plan that does not interrupt production too much. Maybe they will let us know Monday. “Everybody wants a Sig in the sheets but a Glock on the streets.” -bionic218 04-02-2014 | |||
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| Member |
And where did you get this information?? According to the gao/gov report. See page 3 of 17 it states "The combination of all non-price factors was significantly more important than price.". The table on page 6 of 17 is also interesting. http://www.gao.gov/assets/690/685461.pdf | |||
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| Glorious SPAM! |
I bought mine in May of '14, ODG compact with night sights. Last fired it in March of '15. Just over 1K rounds total. Tell you what, we'll see what happens Monday and I might be open to offers | |||
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| Member |
According to some on the Pistol Forum other brands have failed this new drop test as well. I think it is very likely that we will see an addition to the drop testing protocol for all handguns. | |||
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Nullus Anxietas |
 "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system,,,, but too early to shoot the bastards." -- Claire Wolfe "If we let things terrify us, life will not be worth living." -- Seneca the Younger, Roman Stoic philosopher | |||
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| Glorious SPAM! |
I COMPLETLY understand that. The P226 is my favorite Sig. Remember though, they both passed the tests, and that is where price comes into play. I carried the Beretta for many, many years and honestly? I like it better than my P226 now. Not that it's better, it's just better for me. Sig will get this figured out. Lots of emotion out there I totally agree. I just like to judge based on facts. I am not by any means taking up for Sig, but I won't speculate on things I do not know. | |||
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| Member |
Agreed. I think most of us just want them to do the right thing, and hopefully they are. | |||
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| Glorious SPAM! |
Sigh. Ok. You got me. I SPECULATED. I apologize. So lets both wait for some FACTS eh? But "real world" huh? Interesting....so you are the only one to live in the "real world"? What world do the rest of us live in? I'm curious because it's really humid here. Is the real world cooler? Show me some evidence of your claims about M17 drop testing. Verifiable evidence. Show me some evidence where Sig knew and decided to hide this. Show me some evidence of the Sig engineering team "not knowing what they are doing". Because I HAVE NEVER, EVER, seen a product that was tested and approved NOT have faults when it was released for general consumption, no matter WHO the engineers were. Ever heard of an ECP? An ECR? That's right, those things that are implemented when a weapons system (or any system) gets fielded and develops issues not discovered by testing. | |||
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| Member |
The fix? Have you called your Senator, Congressman and the DOJ with this information? ______________________ An expert is one who knows more and more about less and less until he knows absolutely everything about nothing. --Nicholas Murray Butler | |||
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