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Glorious SPAM! |
Correct. An RFP is not a test plan. An RFP states the specifications and requirements the government is looking for, and the test plan will describe how those things are proven (or disproven) in great detail. I doubt we'll ever see the actual test plan or the final test report. | |||
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| Go ahead punk, make my day |
Agreed, and its a pity. | |||
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Ouch to Sig for sure on the HPD response. This is the culmination of Sigs response thus far IMO. Bruce posted to a Sig FB group  Ok, I can understand all of that. To his post I asked if Bruce still believed the original video of the drop test fail (below) was faked. Link to original video: https://youtu.be/Tfe9silCIm8 I also stated that I'd seen him in a video hitting the slide of a 320 when testing the safety of his designs, and wheather or not he had ever struck the striker plate of a 320 as has been shown to also promote failures. Genuinely wanting to know the answer to both. The post was locked to any further comments by a moderator and my comments removed. I understand that he has a vested interest in the pistol, but so do I. After the first video came out I dismissed it solely due to his stating the gun was 100% drop safe. To now state that there are real problems but great people writing huge checks to fix them for you doesn't really dismiss the blatant lies by Sig, knowing about the issue and doing nothing until the flood gates were opened. -wolff "In the absence of light, darkness prevails." - Professor Bruttenholm | |||
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On the plus side, they also fixed the out-of-battery firing problem, stating this at the same place: "Disconnect Safety: Prevents the pistol from firing out of battery." _______________________________ NRA Life Member NRA Certified Range Safety Officer | |||
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Do you believe the linked video is real or faked? The forces and parts involved in a muzzle-down drop fire are typically substantially different from the forces and parts involved in a muzzle-up drop fire. If you believe the linked video is real, that would probably mean that two different drop-fail modes exist simultaneously in the P320 ... and one has still not been clearly identified. | |||
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I'm not sure if it is real or faked, originally I believed it to be faked, but I'm not making any assumptions on this subject any longer. Which is why I asked Bruce. But apparently my questions were seen as disrespectful or something. -wolff "In the absence of light, darkness prevails." - Professor Bruttenholm | |||
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| Thank you Very little  |
Wolff, this is not directed at you specifically, but at the plethora of posts which have comments directed at Sig that somehow acted to deceive on purpose. What lies, specifically, we keep seeing comments with an undertone that Sig was involved in some nefarious activities to deceive both the commercial and individual market. I mean other than the fact that a flaw was found, as the majority learned this week. After several years of zero problems in the real world use of the P320, someone discovered that if you drop it a certain way and it hits specifically it will fire. Yes we all know there is a problem, so like adults, lets see how it's handled because otherwise we're not one bit better than those we admonish for stopping free speech at universities or squashing gun rights in specific states by furthering arguments that have no basis in fact by demonizing one of our own, a firearms manufacturer, hell from the fire and brimstone you'd think Sig just sent money to Upchucky Schumer to back a handgun law restricting the whole USA to NY laws. What hard solid proof out side of the fact there is a known flaw, proof other than 1) a lawsuit, which could be from the same issue, or 2) the video, has anyone seen that substantiates all the bashing of employee ability, engineer prowess, machinists, assembly operators and testing procedures. What proof can anyone offer that at any time Sig deviated from historically used safety tests, found a problem, couldn't solve it and sold the gun anyway. Seriously it appears that if some folks live for a conspiracy, let the facts play out, let the story come out let Sig offer the solution, then if it's weak, bitch scream and moan BTW Ruger just issued a safety recall today on a rifle, OMG they must have known when they built it, must have hidden it, just wanted to see if customers got hurt, if not then don't address it, someone get a rope, find a tree we have more capitalists to Hang... | |||
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| JOIN, or DIE |
So what you're saying is "what proof do we have besides all of the proof and lets not be like colleges that restrict the first amendment so stop saying what I dont like." Oh and something about Chuck Shumer, NY and gun laws, because that is relevant. | |||
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I'm not a conspiracy theorist. The lies I speak of are specifically, I called Sig after the Omaha video came out to ask of the legitimacy of them and was told the 320 was 100 percent drop safe. Now, I could understand that before then it was known to the public to be such, and even Sig's press release after the Dallas PD incident which stated "There have been zero (0) reported drop-related P320 incidents in the U.S. commercial market, with hundreds of thousands of guns delivered to date." However, during the "press conference" announcing the "upgrade" Sig reps claimed to have know of 3 drop fires in the LE community, and another in the civilian market, that they hadn't verified. That's to me is a lie. If sig wants to claim that their claim is truthful due to the semantics of the reports being from the LE community and so their claim that there are 0 incidents in the civilian market, then instead of being liars, they are now just assholes. -wolff "In the absence of light, darkness prevails." - Professor Bruttenholm | |||
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Further, the question had been posted literally a thousand times on FB, to which Bruce emphatically claimed the pistol was 100% drop safe. That he had himself bounced it off everything known to man. It was guaranteed by him to be so, who as far as I know is a designer of the 320. I can completely understand just plain being wrong. It happens to all of us. And there are things that just get past us, or things we couldn't foresee at all. But when the scrutiny is as much as it has been in the last few months and both Sig and the preeminent Sig gunsmith and designer of the P320 tell you it's all BS and then it's proven to be the opposite, and then the smith disappears for days, it make a guy wonder. It could all very well be coincidental and that's fine, but when the smith resurfaces people are going to have questions. To then delete the questions and offer nothing to the inquirers, well, you get it. -wolff "In the absence of light, darkness prevails." - Professor Bruttenholm | |||
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| Go ahead punk, make my day |
Exactly. | |||
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And this too. -wolff "In the absence of light, darkness prevails." - Professor Bruttenholm | |||
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| Go ahead punk, make my day |
Was Ruger dragged kicking and screaming via YouTube in order to realize that the SAFEST RIFLE EVER wasn't as safe? Or did they find it out themselves and just issue the <evil word> recall? Here is what they are doing BTW. It might make some good comparison material next week. https://ruger.com/dataProcess/rprSafety/ | |||
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Do you have a link to the press conference transcript? I have seen this info on the other forum, but it differs from yours. Cathy | |||
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| Go ahead punk, make my day |
I couldn't find anything on the SIG website (nor any press releases, but this pops up everywhere about their 08/04/17 release. http://www.thefirearmblog.com/...safety-p-320-pistol/ " Newington, NH (August 4, 2017) – In response to social media rumors questioning the safety of the P320 pistol, a variant of which was selected by the U.S. government as the U.S. Army’s Modular Handgun System (MHS), SIG SAUER, Inc. has full confidence in the reliability, durability and safety of its striker-fired handgun platform. There have been zero (0) reported drop-related P320 incidents in the U.S. commercial market, with hundreds of thousands of guns delivered to date. The P320 meets and exceeds all U.S. standards for safety, including the American National Standards Institute (ANSI) and Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers’ Institute, Inc. (SAAMI), as well as rigorous testing protocols for global military and law enforcement agencies. All SIG SAUER pistols incorporate effective mechanical safeties to ensure they only fire when the trigger is pressed. However, like any mechanical device, exposure to acute conditions (e.g. shock, vibration, heavy or repeated drops) may have a negative effect on these safety mechanisms and cause them to not work as designed. This language is common to owner’s manuals of major handgun manufacturers. As a result, individual attempts to perform drop tests outside of professionally controlled environments should not be attempted. “SIG SAUER is committed to producing only the finest products,” said Ron Cohen, President and CEO of SIG SAUER. “Safety and reliability have been and always will be paramount to the SIG SAUER brand.” They have the same one here too. http://www.wideopenspaces.com/...fety-of-p320-pistol/ | |||
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This has a copy of Cohen's press release statement: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/...safety-p-320-pistol/ Posted a second after the above. Cohen's statement initially appeared in the press release segment at SIGs main website, but has how been removed, for reasons that I think are obvious. | |||
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| Go ahead punk, make my day |
^^^^^^^^ Yes, all they have is the 08/08/17 release now. But the internet remembers. From their 8/8/17 press day - "Taylor laid it out, “There is a vulnerability with the P320 at the -30deg drop.” They plan to incorporate the trigger enhancements for the M17 into the P320. They’d been working on them, but implementation wasn’t imminent. Based on what they’ve found, that has been accelerated. Details on their voluntary upgrade program will follow soon. "I want to put this perspective. Since it’s introduction in 2014, they’ve sold around 500,000 P320s. There are three recorded cases of unintended discharges in LE channels . There is one additional commercial incident which I am familiar with but was not formally reported to SIG. That’s four known incidents from 500,000 weapons, many of which are used on a daily basis. Additionally, those incidents have all been within the last year." - Tom Taylor, Executive Vice President of Commercial Sales for SIG SAUER http://soldiersystems.net/2017...untary-p320-upgrade/ So on 8/4/17 it's "0 discharges in commercial service" then on 8/8/17 its 4, using the "LE" vs commercial working. I think that is what gets to some of us. | |||
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Yes, more details would great. On the other forum, someone from SIG was quoted as saying something to the effect of '4 incidents, 0 drops'. We also don't have much info on the latest 'incident'. It sounds like the whole holster was dropped. Sounds like a full retention holster though. Cathy | |||
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http://www.thefirearmblog.com/...safety-p-320-pistol/ Took longer than anticipated to find this one.  http://soldiersystems.net/category/weapons/ -wolff "In the absence of light, darkness prevails." - Professor Bruttenholm | |||
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 -wolff "In the absence of light, darkness prevails." - Professor Bruttenholm | |||
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