Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
E tan e epi tas |
How hard would it have been to say. "We at SIGARMs have recently been made aware of a potential safety issue with the P320 pistol. We take safety very seriously with all of our products and are currently investigating this potential issue. We will be working with those departments issued the P320 as well as others to verify any issues and subsequently address them in any way necessary. We appreciate your patience and would ask at this time to exercise caution with our P320. We are committed to providing reliable, durable, safe firearms for the military, law enforcement and civilian markets and will do everything necessary to continue to provide top tier, safe firearms. We will release another statement/our findings blah blah etc. as soon as possible. Blah etc." I mean I totally could respect that. Shit happens, it happens to the best of us. We've boned something up or been bitten in the ass by something unseen. Its not about making mistakes it's simply about doing your best to mitigate and fix the issues at hand. But like I said verbal flubs aside, this will be fixed and will become part of this service pistols lore and will be trotted out 30 years from now when some grizzled old gun nut swears he'd never use an M17A3 pistol cuz they blow up when dropped.  "Guns are tools. The only weapon ever created was man." | |||
|
| Member |
I agree it could have been handled better. Ron Cohen's remarks were particularly painful. On the other hand, we do not have enough info on these other 'incidents' to know what really happened. I don't know Bruce Gray, and maybe I am being naive, but I really feel like he was not aware of this issue. Cathy | |||
|
Member |
-wolff "In the absence of light, darkness prevails." - Professor Bruttenholm | |||
|
| Member |
Well, they might know, they might not know. Doesn't much matter to me. In my opinion they would have ensured there was no connection between the 4 reported and the issues of the drop tests. They didn't do that, so to me, they are all related. And I assure you I'm not the only one thinking that. -wolff "In the absence of light, darkness prevails." - Professor Bruttenholm | |||
|
| Go ahead punk, make my day |
Yes - you can speak fact / truth, but still be deceitful by omission of facts you don't like. | |||
|
| Member |
Where are you getting information that Bruce designed the P320? | |||
|
| Member |
I would like to think that before he posted, he called his upper echelon contacts at Sig and said "What is all this crap about the P320 firing if dropped?" They either lied and said "It's all bullshit, we can't duplicate it and, we've never heard of a P320 drop firing." Or "Yeah....about that....toe the party line and help us with the 'it's all bullshit' line that we are going with." From what little I know of Bruce Grey, he's a man of integrity. A very good friend of mine knows Bruce well. He relays he's a standup guy. Either version is going to tarnish his reputation to some degree. If he was lied to, that's pretty sorry of Sig to hang him out. | |||
|
| Go ahead punk, make my day |
Well put. | |||
|
| Member |
I'm not saying I think he solely designed the pistol, but "Designer and custom pistolsmith at Grayguns Inc. Privileged to be R&D consultant to the world's greatest maker of fine firearms." & "With our partners at Sig, we're developing an array of possibilities to positively address our mutual customers very understandable safety concerns." I'm in no way blaming Bruce for the issues at hand, however as someone who was speaking for the 320 claiming it was 100% drop proof, to be asked legitimate questions about the issue afterward and simply delete them is irritating. -wolff "In the absence of light, darkness prevails." - Professor Bruttenholm | |||
|
| Member |
-wolff "In the absence of light, darkness prevails." - Professor Bruttenholm | |||
|
| Peace through superior firepower  |
What is it that you want, wolffy? A pound of flesh? Will that be carry-out, or pick-up? | |||
|
| Member |
I don't think Gray did any significant drop testing over and above what was/is identified as the industry standard. That's not a cut to him, rather, it's a cut to SIG because for crying out loud, DROP TESTING a new design is Numero Uno. Who would think a major gun designer would cook up a gun that went off because somebody let it fall to the floor? In fact, in a sense, I am saying it makes SIG all the more culpable, in that tho Gray bears responsibility for whatever he does/did/says/said, designing a pistol that doesn't go bang when dropped is so basic, so rudimentary, so essential, that you can hardly fault the guy if he didn't do "extensive" drop testing! If ever an assumption was allowed, it is here. ********************** 53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Read Quod Apostolici Muneris (1878) LEO XIII. This Pope warned us about the Socialists before most folks knew what a Socialist was... | |||
|
Member |
wolffy88, These things are untidy. Perhaps Sig could have done things differently along the way as they kept developing the P320. Similarly, maybe Bruce could have done and said something different. Bruce, to my understanding, is not a patent holder or inventor of the P320. He worked as an RD consultant on the P320. I remember being introduced to one of the inventors at Shot Show 2015 if memory serves. In 2014, I had several more than one hour conversations with Bruce about things such as the P320. I can tell you at the time that Bruce told me that he was testing and retesting the P320 according to accepted drop test standards. He said there were even military standards that he was using. He said at the time that Sig was insisting on high drop safe standards. I suppose someone could say he was lying or some such thing. He was very specific but I cannot remember all the protocol standards that he was using. But if you had ever spoken with Bruce you’d know that when he rattles off the name of some standard during a conversation it is just the kind of detail he would express. One poster here suggested that it is not a trigger weight issue but is a sear/striker bounce issue. I am not sure who knows at this point. I am wondering if the one civilian instance was the one with the James Yeager instructor in Sacramento who allegedly threw down a P320 in gravel. I do not know. In that case, I believe, someone says the instructor stepped on the P320 and gravel engaged the trigger. Anyway, I am not sure of the circumstance of the 4 instances but I don’t think they necessarily deserve to be lumped together into the same cause. Furthermore, knowledge that something happened is not the same as knowledge of why it happened. Sig’s statement that the civilian instance was not reported to them directly makes me wonder what they could have concluded from that. That Bruce or other testers who used accepted drop safety standards did not come up with the drop fire problem may tell us something about whether the standard testing protocols need to be changed. In any event, isn’t it possible to you that Bruce was expressing his conclusion about his testing. I cringed when I saw him make the early categorical statements in light of video information that was emerging. Maybe it tells us something about making categorical statements about drop tests. The Sig statement that acknowledges something like 63,000,000 drop angle combinations on 3 axis may be a practical overstatement but after so many years of P320 use, there does seem to be a just right scenario that hasn’t happened much. Given the dynamic nature of the situation, I am not sure Sig would want one of their R&D consultants speaking for the company. They need to examine and own the issues. So, it seems wise for everyone concerned to stop and learn before they conclude and misspeak. It doesn’t strike me as odd that Bruce would have his first heartfelt response then go quiet. In the meantime, Sig has a fix and they say it passes all the nonstandard tests that are causing the -30 drop fire. They have still not said exactly what causes the problem. So, is it conceivable that it or any other pistol may show some drop fire vulnerability after testing? Maybe some designs are more secure than others. Will a pistol fire if dropped on some angle from 14 feet? I only mention this to say that standard protocols do not test every angle and height of impact. (This thread moves quickly. I wrote this post while so many other responses followed.) _______________________________ NRA Life Member NRA Certified Range Safety Officer | |||
|
Member |
Tough to keep up, but I don't think anybody has posted the official Grayguns statement released tonight: https://grayguns.com/grayguns-...0-voluntary-upgrade/
| |||
|
| Member |
I don't know. I read what you are saying though. I do not think Bruce lied about anything. I simply asked honest questions and got dismissed by Bruce or another admin. Before Omaha Outdoors if you said drop and P320 Bruce was right there to answer questions and reassure everyone. Come to now, I'd have liked the same treatment. It would have been different if I attacked him or blamed him. -wolff "In the absence of light, darkness prevails." - Professor Bruttenholm | |||
|
| Go ahead punk, make my day |
Better than the Facebook post today. | |||
|
| Member |
Who thinks Sig would have voluntarily disclosed this drop fire safety problem with the 320 by today, August 10, but for the initial drop fire video (the one characterized as a total fraud) from a few weeks back, the Texas PD temporary hold on use of the 320, and the Aug 4 CT lawsuit? Someone ought to profusely thank the poster of that initial video, and the officer from TX who temporarily put use of the 320 on hold, for doing the right thing, and potentially avoiding further instances of the 320 discharging when dropped. Sig may, as stated in the NRA article, be spending $2 million a year on drop testing, but they shouldn't confuse effort with results. From where I sit, it was the internet that identified this problem, and caused action to be taken. | |||
|
| Peace through superior firepower |
Here's a hard truth for you, wolffy- Bruce Gray doesn't owe you squat. It seems that the man finds himself in a difficult position. I'd appreciate it if we could put aside the failed expectations and let information come to us without trying to force the issue. All will become clear in time. Next week, we'll know more. In the meantime, you've made your feelings known. ____________________________________________________ "I am your retribution." - Donald Trump, speech at CPAC, March 4, 2023 | |||
|
| Member |
GJM AK, There's little doubt that social media caused immediate action. It remains to be seen if there was a Ford Pinto decision on when Sig would have, if ever, fixed legacy units as they put the upgraded ones into circulation. _______________________________ NRA Life Member NRA Certified Range Safety Officer | |||
|
| Member |
- I'm not going to comment on anything else in your post, but the above snip requires a bit of clarification. Today's "recall" of the Ruger Precision Rifle has nothing to do with safety. It is a recall on certain Precision Rifles in which interference of the bolt shroud with the receiver may induce light strikes and/or failure to set off the round in the chamber. It's a function issue, NOT a safety issue. Ruger Precision Rifles aren't in danger of making the bang noise when dropped; they just might not make the bang noise when you want them to if your particular rifle is affected. To quote Samuel L. Jackson in Pulp Fiction; "It ain't the same ballpark. It ain't even the same f**ckin' SPORT!" Your comparison is spurious beyond belief. | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata | Page 1 ... 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 ... 89 |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
© SIGforum 2024