quote:

Originally posted by smithnsig:
Facts be damned? Are those videos faked?

I have no idea. But, there are certain facts that some in this thread have ignored because they weren't convenient to the narrative that they were advancing.

Here's what I do know. There are roughly 420,000 P320's in the US. Until a week ago, not a single report of any incident due to the gun not being drop safe. Several agencies, the factory, and independent contractors have conducted various states of drop testing on the gun, and there were zero issues. Until a week ago.

Hysteria on the internet spreads so fast. It is actually an amazing thing. So many people want to get a "me too" video or post in. Now, think about this. We've already seen in this post that people are less than honest in their "fact" gathering. So much so, that when someone throws in sarcasm and refers to the people that he disagrees with as "fanboys", you know that you have won the disagreement. That is a fact.

I so not care if the P320 succeeds or not. I don't care if SIG is in the right or wrong. I don't even care if the gun is drop safe or not. What I can't stand is the negative bullshit that is spewed by people that clearly have an agenda, minus actual facts. The ones that are willing to believe videos from people you've never heard of (Omaha Outdoors), and take the word as gospel. But in the same breath dismiss everything else because it doesn't fit in their neat overhead bin of spin. And while we are on the topic, when someone takes pot shots over a friends integrity, and then doesn't have the balls to admit that he did it, well, I've got no use for that kind of person. Especially when they are trolling so hard.

I have no idea if the videos are legit. And truthfully, I don't even care. Either we take it all at face value, or we take none of the stuff we read from vague sources as real.

Concern over a topic is understandable. But, don't feed the trolls.

quote:

Originally posted by Blackwater:

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
And while the "manual safety" version made be golden for the M17 contract, who knows if there is some aspect of the manual safety that is bugggered up? We don't know because there aren't that many out there.

People are going to believe what they want, facts be damned. Some seem to want to believe that if enough can be piled on SIG, that Glock will be given the contract in the same way if Trump is impeached, Hillary will become president.

The 17 contract will stroke on like none of this ever happened.

This thread will dominate the pistols section for a few weeks, especially if a couple of posters have anything to do with it, and in a few months this will be "drop safe who?" once Facespace unleashes the next big controversy, real or imagined.

My real point with the manual safety version is we really don't know how good (or not) it is.

Took several years for this to be discovered, the manual safety has seen negligible service thus far.

I couldn't care less if the M17 is a Glock, Sig or Beretta. Just pointing out that there is at best limited data on the manual safety version but plenty of shenanigans by SIG WRT original SIG USA designs.

Don't forget the wildly successful P224... P232 in 22LR... etc...

Oh snap.....
Yes, the M17 "government" contract will go on. Those have proven highly successful in the past.

Doesn't mean we provided the best pistol to mil.
Time will tell on that.

IMO, if you're looking for the best 9mm handgun, I wouldn't put the P320 in the top five, but that's me based on personal experience. No warranty implied.

I would have personally made the jump to the M9A3.

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:

quote:

Originally posted by gordynismo:

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
The 17 contract is not going to be under scrutiny. It has a manual safety and will not discharge for the reasons presented, if true.

Could it discharge after the safety is disengaged and then dropped...and if all the stars are aligned?

Who knows? How long as the safety version been available? How is the safety system designed / constructed.

I think the simple answers is "we don't know yet". But why would you ever drop a firearm with the safety off? That could never happen! And everyone knows the first step to the 'drop firearm' checklist is SAFETY - ON.

This is how the safety works. When it engages, the tooth inserts down onto the side of the trigger bar. There is a "hook" on the back of the trigger bar that the tooth engages on preventing the trigger bar from moving forward. There is only 1-2 millimeters of pull in the trigger with the safety engaged. It physically stops the trigger bar from articulating.

I don't have any intention of using my manual safety 320s as test subjects. But, I think it is fair to say that if the issue is the trigger weight, the gun will not drop-fire with the safety engaged.


Disengaged




Engaged

Because the video showed the trigger moving immediately prior to the discharge (essential an inertially powered trigger stroke. Also, a lighter trigger had the effect of mitigating the problem (however, with the proviso that if enough force was applied the trigger could still inertially fire.) If the cause of the discharge is a trigger stroke, than a manual safety should stop it.

I guess the force could also deactivate the safety. But the safety actuates in a different direction than the trigger, so I really doubt that a single blow could deactivate both.

quote:

Originally posted by RX-79G:

quote:

Originally posted by BBMW:
It had made it a non-issue. This video make it VERY much an issue.

I was one of the first ones here looking sideways at the claims about the DPD problems. But to me, that video is definitive.

The P320 in its configurations without a manual safety is NOT drop safe, and therefore is defective. Also, a gun with a manual safety shouldn't go fire even if dropped with the safety off. Since the non-safety version will fire if dropped and impacts at the correct angle, I have to now assume so will the manual safety version, if the safety is off.

Until this is fixed, I'd have nothing to do with it (and I really liked this gun.)

quote:

Originally posted by YooperSigs:
I had to re-read the thread as I had missed Mr. Gray's post. That, for me, makes it a non-issue.

Why would you consider a frame safety definitively proof against an AD with a striker pistol. It is only an assumption at this point that the trigger is the problem rather than something in the slide.

quote:

Originally posted by 18DAI:
How about.........just not dropping your handgun? In 48 years of handling, carrying and shooting handguns, I only recall "dropping" one.

In 2002 my issued HK USP40 fell out of its holster in the head. It landed on its hammer on the tile floor. No ND. One slightly bent hammer spur.

This appears to be much ado about.......nothing. My 0.02 Regards 18DAI

Sure, who wants to just go around dropping their guns? But that's not the point. Point is, if you accidentally drop your gun, it's not expected to go bang. It's huge, if a gun, with all the safeties in place these days, just goes off when dropped. Much ado about nothing? I think not.

quote:

Originally posted by gordynismo:


This is how the safety works. When it engages, the tooth inserts down onto the side of the trigger bar. There is a "hook" on the back of the trigger bar that the tooth engages on preventing the trigger bar from moving forward. There is only 1-2 millimeters of pull in the trigger with the safety engaged. It physically stops the trigger bar from articulating.

I don't have any intention of using my manual safety 320s as test subjects. But, I think it is fair to say that if the issue is the trigger weight, the gun will not drop-fire with the safety engaged.


Disengaged

If the safety immobilizes the trigger bar, does it lock the sear in the process like a 1911 does, or just the trigger bar like a Lorcin or P210?

Hmmm, 50 or so posts since the first of the month, and 47 are in two threads about the drop safety of the P320. Yeah, hard one to figure out.

Latch on to an authority figure? That is funny. He's a good friend, and I'll stand up for him any day of the week. He has integrity, and integrity is enough.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
Hmmm, 50 or so posts since the first of the month, and 47 are in two threads about the drop safety of the P320. Yeah, hard one to figure out.

More personal attacks.

Are you paid by SIG to do this kind of thing?

quote:

Originally posted by RX-79G:

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
Hmmm, 50 or so posts since the first of the month, and 47 are in two threads about the drop safety of the P320. Yeah, hard one to figure out.

More personal attacks.

Are you paid by SIG to do this kind of thing?

Nope, I do it for free. Always amazed at people that troll and then attempt to pretend they high ground. When someone accuses you of being a fanboy (or in this case a paid asset), you know they really have nothing to dispute what is said.

I would love to hear from Sig, and Bruce if he wishes to opine. I have benched my personal gun...

I'm confused. Do I still need to get rid of my 320s?

quote:

Originally posted by gordynismo:

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:

quote:

Originally posted by gordynismo:

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
The 17 contract is not going to be under scrutiny. It has a manual safety and will not discharge for the reasons presented, if true.

Could it discharge after the safety is disengaged and then dropped...and if all the stars are aligned?

Who knows? How long as the safety version been available? How is the safety system designed / constructed.

I think the simple answers is "we don't know yet". But why would you ever drop a firearm with the safety off? That could never happen! And everyone knows the first step to the 'drop firearm' checklist is SAFETY - ON.

This is how the safety works. When it engages, the tooth inserts down onto the side of the trigger bar. There is a "hook" on the back of the trigger bar that the tooth engages on preventing the trigger bar from moving forward. There is only 1-2 millimeters of pull in the trigger with the safety engaged. It physically stops the trigger bar from articulating.

I don't have any intention of using my manual safety 320s as test subjects. But, I think it is fair to say that if the issue is the trigger weight, the gun will not drop-fire with the safety engaged.


Disengaged




Engaged

How about with the safety disengaged?

Pistol are dropped when they aren't in a holster. When a P320 with a manual safety is out of the holster, it could very well have its safety off.

I concede that it likely wouldn't fire in the manner shown with the manual safety engage, but then again that is simply conjecture and reasoned opinion, as we really don't know why the non-manual safety weapons are firing.

If it's all lies and deception, should be easy for SIG to grab 5 guns off the line and test them, then release the video. Just like SIG could prove that their Romeo sights aren't Holosun OEM made in China, by showing where their people manufacture them in the USA.

Not hard to do at all.

quote:

Originally posted by RX-79G:

quote:

Originally posted by gordynismo:


This is how the safety works. When it engages, the tooth inserts down onto the side of the trigger bar. There is a "hook" on the back of the trigger bar that the tooth engages on preventing the trigger bar from moving forward. There is only 1-2 millimeters of pull in the trigger with the safety engaged. It physically stops the trigger bar from articulating.

I don't have any intention of using my manual safety 320s as test subjects. But, I think it is fair to say that if the issue is the trigger weight, the gun will not drop-fire with the safety engaged.


Disengaged

If the safety immobilizes the trigger bar, does it lock the sear in the process like a 1911 does, or just the trigger bar like a Lorcin or P210?

It does not lock the sear, only the trigger bar. With the safety engaged, I can still press down on the sear. Everything else seems to move except the trigger bar.

Two different known groups drop test the 320 and they fire. Sig is lying to cover their ass or they have gotten that bad. Either way this will be interesting.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve 22X:
After reading that linked article I saw absolutely no more NEW information than I had already received viewing the Omaha video on YouTube.
However, after my initial post I then read the comment section of that article and quoted what I read.
Noting that if one attempts to "approximate" portions of testing at an increased height rather than actually testing at that height, it certainly implies that they had to simulate the force of a drop from a higher level.
Coupled with what I observed in the video just past the 2:01 point where it appears the gun is thrown down rather than dropped, I came to my conclusion.
That is what I am talking about.

At no time did I throw the pistol. Here is a more complete video of that particular drop.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XW9PpGwZKE

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
Hmmm, 50 or so posts since the first of the month, and 47 are in two threads about the drop safety of the P320. Yeah, hard one to figure out.

Latch on to an authority figure? That is funny. He's a good friend, and I'll stand up for him any day of the week. He has integrity, and integrity is enough.

Was thinking the same thing.

quote:

Originally posted by Andrew Tuohy:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve 22X:
After reading that linked article I saw absolutely no more NEW information than I had already received viewing the Omaha video on YouTube.
However, after my initial post I then read the comment section of that article and quoted what I read.
Noting that if one attempts to "approximate" portions of testing at an increased height rather than actually testing at that height, it certainly implies that they had to simulate the force of a drop from a higher level.
Coupled with what I observed in the video just past the 2:01 point where it appears the gun is thrown down rather than dropped, I came to my conclusion.
That is what I am talking about.

At no time did I throw the pistol. Here is a more complete video of that particular drop.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XW9PpGwZKE

You should post them all.

The plot thickens as a secret army of Glockers plots to overthrow SIG and risk slander lawsuits simply to get YouTube income.

Post count, personal attacks, what other brands will do or won't do, fanboys and whether or not a poster is getting paid or not...these are all red herrings and have little to do with the videos presented.

Does the Sig fire when dropped or not? That is the only question.

Personally I don't have a dog in the fight as I don't own a P320 and I wasn't planning on buying any new striker fired pistols in the foreseeable future. I am interested in the truth as a casual observer and as the guy in my group of acquaintances that everyone comes to for advice about guns so I am keeping up with this thread. The rest is just noise.

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
The plot thickens as a secret army of Glockers plots to overthrow SIG and risk slander lawsuits simply to get YouTube income.

And don't forget the 15 minutes of fame.

To be fair, you also must include the super secret plot to conceal the 320 not being drop safe for all these years as it has been hidden in a hermetically sealed jar in Ron Cohen's back yard.

It balances it out nicely.