quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:
The P320 may be terminal, whether a failure point is identified or not. But I don't think that the P365 is a suitable replacement.

While the P365 is a solid conceal carry handgun choice, it's not designed to be a service pistol. Parts maintenance intervals are shorter and the internal components are not as robust.

Also, one of Ian's own primary criticisms of the P320 also applies to the P365...there's no trigger safety.

As been mentioned, the P365 does use a plunger type firing pin block as opposed to a striker block that's defeated by a lever action instead of a striker pushing itself through the plunger to set off a round. The P365 should also be easier to retrofit a trigger safety onto a P365 as the P320 has been hollowed out to such a point it's just bent sheet metal to keep the weight of the trigger down to stop an AD from occurring that way.

I know Agency Arms made a trigger dingus but it's been discontinued for a long time and also said it would not work with an AXG frame for some reason.

quote:

Originally posted by YooperSigs:
I realize there will be pros and cons to this idea but I think one of the easiest ways for Sig to address this issue is redesigning the FCU to include an actual, non MIM thumb safety that blocks both trigger bar and the sear. Then offer to swap them into the existing guns for free.
And at this point, I think Cohen needs to seek other employment opportunities!

I'm not sure how many P320 owners are going to be satisfied waiting years for their number to come up in the 3.5 million pistols to be upgraded.

quote:

Originally posted by DanH:
<snip> The P365 should also be easier to retrofit a trigger safety onto a P365 as the P320 has been hollowed out to such a point it's just bent sheet metal to keep the weight of the trigger down to stop an AD from occurring that way.

This is true, but a re-designed trigger with a tabbed safety wouldn't necessarily need to conform to those same standards because the inertial drop safety function would be performed by the trigger tab rather than relying on low-mass components. Theoretically a tabbed trigger would allow them to do away with the rear sear leg as well (another hypothesized problem) if they wanted to stick with the existing basic design...but IMO a completely new pistol would be a more confidence-inspiring solution. It would be nice to get away from the coil spring-supported sear altogether, and I also agree that a more traditional plunger-style striker safety would be preferable.

quote:

Originally posted by DanH:
There's also been comments on the Wyoming Gun Channel of viewers with their own P320s that have tried this and have not been able to get a discharge. Something else to consider is the AXG and other metal frames have far better slide to frame fit since there's nothing in the frame that's going to flex.

I asked way earlier in this thread and never saw a response.
Have there been any uncommanded discharges on unholstered weapons?

Now, I’d like to know.
Have all uncommanded discharges been with Sig plastic grip modules, have they all been the same size module, have there been any in an X grip modules, or any metal grip modules?
Have there been any in Wilson Combat grip modules?

quote:

Originally posted by Broadside:
I watched the entire Fairburn video earlier today and I do not recall that he addressed any of those items.

He addressed two issues. One I agree with and the other I don’t.

First he says the trigger is too light. I agree with that.

Second, he says that the P320 is made with low quality, MIM parts which is contributing to the problems. But he provided no proof that this was happening.

The MIM parts is where I quit watching. He offered zero evidence to back up his opinion. If there were something physical wrong with any of the guns this supposedly happened to, the lawyers and their experts would be all over it. Blood is in the water and those sharks know it.

The one case I looked at was heavy on blaming SIG’s “Safety Without Comprise” marketing but light on proof the gun actually did what the plaintiff claimed: went off by itself fully holstered and lock in place by the Safariland 7360 holster’s hood. The Tampa Bay Police Department’s own investigation showed what guy said happened could not have possibly happened.

quote:

Originally posted by Black92LX:
Now, I’d like to know.
Have all uncommanded discharges been with Sig plastic grip modules, have they all been the same size module, have there been any in an X grip modules, or any metal grip modules?
Have there been any in Wilson Combat grip modules?

With the M17/M18, it would be with the regular Sig leftover P250 grips, and as far as I know, just about every police agency went with the X Frame as that's the most common one I've seen on body camera videos and is about the only way Sig ships out their no frills P320s.

It's also unknown if any of the aftermarket frames have contributed to this, but if other agencies are like the one I work for, unless you're in a secret squirrel squad, your gun is factory oem parts only with the only wiggle room is work to get rid of the Glock hump and maybe your choice of all metal 3 dot night sights.

"The Sig Sauer Shit Show" exist as we see it today as a direct result of many years where critical thinking and logic have fled from our midst.

The internet is a perfect petri dish with vast quantity of nutritious medium for brain rotting fungi to proliferate.

A great majority of people let their brains jump in and bath in it without any good consideration to the effect it has.

At the point we are at this time, I don't believe Sig will be able to overcome the pitchfork and torch mob that needs a monster to kill.

This is unfortunate.

I wish Sig all the best, the damage from fallout will affect more people than any "good" that will come from settlements or judgements against Sig.

Many of us lived through the Audi 5000 unintended acceleration crisis in the 80's. I nearly bankrupted Audi.

Drivers insisted they were pressing the brake as hard as possible yet the car careened out of control at full throttle. 60 Minutes did a segment on it, made the Audi people look bad, failed to explain what was happening in a video they showed of a 5000 coming to a complete stop under full throttle using the brakes. They implied an "idle stabilizer" module was the culprit, which was replaced due to unstable idle speeds.

None of the cars were found to have defective braking systems after the crashes, and there was no link between the throttle and braking system that could cause any interaction. The problem never occurred on manual transmission cars either, only automatics.

In the end, the only possible explanation was driver error - pedal misapplication. It happens occasionally with many kinds of cars, but usually the cause is immediately determined and the case is closed. Elderly people make this error more often, so cars like the Grand Marquis had higher incidence.

The difference with Audi was the younger more affluent yuppies that started denying the obvious and suing instead of considering they made an error.

We all know about Glock leg and all the hoopla about that in the 90's when Glocks became the default LE pistol. It was not the Glocks, it was bad trigger discipline and things getting stuck in the trigger when holstering. Why LE agencies issue windbreakers with drawstrings never made any sense to me.

So now we have this P320 issue. Almost all of the clues point to bad trigger discipline, holsters that allow too much space around the trigger that make it easier to touch, and foreign objects like keys. MSP even showed damage on the trigger guard consistent with keys.

Pulling the trigger through the takeup and partially through the "wall" will raise the FPS lever enough to defeat the FPS. It HAS to work this way to that the FPS is disabled a little bit before striker release. Otherwise you will get light or no strikes. So I don't buy the argument about partially pressing the trigger and wiggling the slide.

Assembling the gun with wrong parts and then saying it can fire uncommanded that way is disingenuous. There is no evidence this has actually occurred in any of the cases. And if there was we would know it.

As with any investigation, the most important thing is to duplicate the issue on the offending gun. We have not really seen this yet. The MSP gun seemed to be repeatable, but now we are seeing that was at least partially due how they tested it. I am waiting to see the results of the Air Force investigation. I respect Bruce Gray's position. However I have also been part of problem solving investigations in manufacturing and sometimes when it seems you've looked at every possible cause and everything points in one direction, there is a variable that was missed. So I'm also open to the idea that no one has found the specific issue yet.

quote:

Originally posted by Lefty Sig:
So now we have this P320 issue. Almost all of the clues point to bad trigger discipline, holsters that allow too much space around the trigger that make it easier to touch, and foreign objects like keys. MSP even showed damage on the trigger guard consistent with keys.

I tend to agree. We all think we are perfect with our trigger discipline, but probably have gotten away with a few sloppy incidents due to heavy DA triggers, tab safeties, etc. The P320 doesn't give us much leeway for mistakes. Maybe the Bruce Gray answer will be a well designed, drop in tabbed trigger that will eliminate the vast majority of the UDs and put our minds at ease.

quote:

Originally posted by Lefty Sig:

As with any investigation, the most important thing is to duplicate the issue on the offending gun. We have not really seen this yet. The MSP gun seemed to be repeatable, but now we are seeing that was at least partially due how they tested it. I am waiting to see the results of the Air Force investigation. I respect Bruce Gray's position. However I have also been part of problem solving investigations in manufacturing and sometimes when it seems you've looked at every possible cause and everything points in one direction, there is a variable that was missed. So I'm also open to the idea that no one has found the specific issue yet.

Well said.

“Why not?” Because a million reasons. Which you of course could come up with on your own. Being an augmentee to a security unit means nothing in this scenario. Were you assigned to this SF unit? With that guy? Is he incapable of mistakes? Of course not. We all watched a DEA agent shoot the shit out of himself and I’m pretty sure FLETC is a well respected training center too. Shit happens. I don’t believe anything just “because”.

Everything about that story screams out we don’t know the full story. If you can’t acknowledge even the smallest hint of doubt or suspicion as to its veracity then we can just politely agree to disagree.

If this story happened exactly as it’s being told we literally have the first and only example of a gun sitting at rest and it just spontaneously fired. Forget the holster. It was sitting in a holster all day. It just went off with zero input from anything. That is what this story is demanding we believe. Nope, don’t believe it. At all. There are parts of this story that didn’t make the initial reporting.

Prices on P320's ought to start dropping.

I bet they will become nearly giveaways unless Sig has a fix that chases away the jackals. I have said it before, my 3 that I have left are basically useless. I don’t shoot them and nobody would buy them.

quote:

Originally posted by MNSIG:
<<snip>> We all think we are perfect with our trigger discipline, but probably have gotten away with a few sloppy incidents <<snip>>

Slightly off-topic here, but your comment reminds me of an incident that happened to me somewhere around 2014 or so. I was daily carrying a P239 at the time in an IWB holster. One evening I decided I was going to switch to my P225 for a while so went to put the P239 in the safe. Upon removing it from the holster I noticed that the hammer was cocked! I had been carrying it for no telling how long that way, and I was DAMNED LUCKY that nothing happened. Only trigger discipline saved me from disaster, but I know I'm far from perfect on all things.

quote:

Originally posted by Dawes:
Prices on P320's ought to start dropping.

You would think so, but as of two weeks ago on my last LGS visit to pickup my SP2022, I decided to browse P320 prices in the cabinets, and they looked as strong as ever! My favorite LGS does some pretty amazing pricing on most products, and is typically in the same ballpark as online discount dealers, which is why I always buy from them and nobody else. Consequently I was surprised at the prices of the P320s not being discounted at all! Didn't see any in the used gun case either, though I suspect they will no longer buy or trade them in.

quote:

Originally posted by bronicabill:
Slightly off-topic here, but your comment reminds me of an incident that happened to me somewhere around 2014 or so. I was daily carrying a P239 at the time in an IWB holster. One evening I decided I was going to switch to my P225 for a while so went to put the P239 in the safe. Upon removing it from the holster I noticed that the hammer was cocked! I had been carrying it for no telling how long that way, and I was DAMNED LUCKY that nothing happened. Only trigger discipline saved me from disaster, but I know I'm far from perfect on all things.

Since we're talking about inherent safety of pistol designs, I'm not sure it's off topic at all. Your experience made me curious enough to break out my Lyman trigger gauge and do some measuring on my P320 and P226. Both are stock with no trigger work. P226 single action was 5lb, 9oz (avg of 3). P320 was 6lb, 6oz (avg of 3). The take up before engagement on the P226 is considerably longer than the P320. Your cocked P239 may not have been that much more dangerous than the P320! I wouldn't have guessed that.

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
I bet they will become nearly giveaways unless Sig has a fix that chases away the jackals. I have said it before, my 3 that I have left are basically useless. I don’t shoot them and nobody would buy them.

The problem in all of this is that we have seen this picture show before. This is a repeat of 2016. And we find out years later that SIG was aware of the problem, quietly rolled out a fix on the .mil pistols, and they only admitted to it publicly after the damning Omaha Outfitters video dropped.

I didn’t realize Grayguns designed that extra leg, the sear safety cam projection, on the upgraded sear: