quote:

Seriously? A bullet spontaneously jumps out of a holstered gun.

This discussion is drifting off topic so I won't comment anymore, and while I have no clue of the totality of the range situation you are describing, the rules involved etc. and the resulting risks from an AD. But if you think that the only gun that can have an ND/AD/malfunction or whatever you want to call it while holstered, drawing, or reholstering a gun is the Sig 320 you are incorrect.

quote:

Originally posted by hrcjon:

quote:

Seriously? A bullet spontaneously jumps out of a holstered gun.

This discussion is drifting off topic so I won't comment anymore, and while I have no clue of the totality of the range situation you are describing, the rules involved etc. and the resulting risks from an AD. But if you think that the only gun that can have an ND/AD/malfunction or whatever you want to call it while holstered, drawing, or reholstering a gun is the Sig 320 you are incorrect.

Are you saying you know of other handguns which spontaneously discharge while holstered? Could you tell me what they are?

Comparing my personal experiences at public ranges to my 7 years with the P320, I think it's significantly more likely that I could get shot by somebody else at the range doing something stupid than I am to have my P320 spontaneously go off. Multiple orders of magnitude more likely.

I agree with almost everything you guys are saying but…

I absolutely don’t buy that Air Force airman story at face value. That gun needs to be tested and demonstrated to “spontaneously discharge while holstered”.

The stories I’ve read are very thin on details, maybe my reading skills suck, but did anybody witness this? Is it on camera? The story I keep seeing is remove holster, set it down, do a myriad of activities, return later, and then it just shoots the guy as he walks in front of it. That stretches my ability to believe human nature and truth telling and statistics.

None of this is to say I would carry my 320’s at this point. The risk/reward isn’t even close. That doesn’t mean I have to believe every single story out there.

I don’t believe this one. Yet. This gun is the gun that sounds like you should be able to recreate this event if true.

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
I agree with almost everything you guys are saying but…

I absolutely don’t buy that Air Force airman story at face value. That gun needs to be tested and demonstrated to “spontaneously discharge while holstered”.

The stories I’ve read are very thin on details, maybe my reading skills suck, but did anybody witness this? Is it on camera? The story I keep seeing is remove holster, set it down, do a myriad of activities, return later, and then it just shoots the guy as he walks in front of it. That stretches my ability to believe human nature and truth telling and statistics.

None of this is to say I would carry my 320’s at this point. The risk/reward isn’t even close. That doesn’t mean I have to believe every single story out there.

I don’t believe this one. Yet. This gun is the gun that sounds like you should be able to recreate this event if true.

The doubt that has been created in the safety of this gun due to all the incidents and bad press is potentially as big of a problem in the search for a resolution as the mechanical issue itself at this point. Human nature being what it is, any time there's an incident with a P320 now the immediate response is to blame the gun, whereas in the past it was pretty universally accepted that a gun couldn't or wouldn't fire without some kind of user input. While there may well be some legitimate mechanical problems here, it's also not much of a stretch to believe that a good percentage of the reports are the gun being used as a scapegoat for mishandling.

I agree, I'd like to hear more witness testimony and see video, if it's available. But this was a recent incident and it's the military, so it'll probably be a long time before that happens, if ever.

I also agree that if this gun really did discharge in the manner described, it would be the one to test to determine the mechanical issue behind the problem. If it did what they're saying it did, there's gotta be something seriously wrong with that gun or holster.

On the current trajectory this will not end well for SIG.

The drama reminds me of the quip regarding morality where it is noted that if you ever feel the need to seek guidance from someone with a question by saying “Would it be ethical to … ?” then you already have your answer.

If SIG, both individually and through its endorsers, feel the need to go to the media urging people to remain patient while they investigate whether or not their pistols go off by themselves, when clearly the public already believes that they can, SIG should already have their answer. Whether it is an engineered mechanical problem inherent in the design or bad human factors engineered into the design it doesn’t matter.


At this point, there is no amount of recalls or fixes that SIG could promulgate that will save the P320 pistol AND I see HELL raining down from Pete Hegseth for DOD procurement of said pistol. SIG should adjust course quickly. But that’s just my opinion.

Regardless of whether a mechanical issue is found and corrected, in the public's eye the P320 is so tainted that it may be hard to recover from.

quote:

Originally posted by Dawes:
Regardless of whether a mechanical issue is found and corrected, in the public's eye the P320 is so tainted that it may be hard to recover from.

This and more so SIG the brand. They’ve just spent all their banked goodwill over the years. It will take a long time for them to recover from this and it didn’t have to happen. Even with Cohen’s cheapening of the brand a little bit of humble “we cannot find a problem on our end but we are seeing the incidents and doing everything we can to figure this out. We found our trigger travel may be too short for typical duty use so we had to make it longer for safety. Blah blah blah or some such would have played far better then the WE ARE RIGHT! YOU ARE ALL AT FAULT!!! WE WILL LITIGATE!!!! IT ENDS TODAY BECAUSE TODAY WE START ATTACKING YOU!!!

Good lord we all know products can have defects/problems. We just want them addressed/taken seriously.

quote:

Originally posted by Sigmund:

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:

...It's one of the nine major commands comprising the Air Force, and includes about 31k airmen, or around 10% of the Air Force.

But doesn't Global Strike Command have a huge number of Security Forces who guard remote missile sites?

We no longer have nuclear armed bombers on alert (although Whiteman B-2s may be in a higher state of readiness), so I think the bomber bases have fewer SF.

This is a poor assumption. Just because they don't have bombers on alert, doesn't mean they have fewer SF Airmen. There are still "specials" and the requirement to have the capability to go on alert--so manning would require them to have sufficient numbers to support a generation of aircraft.

For sometime its became less about the P320 issues and became more about Sig’s attitude and the It Ends today campaign is clear testament to Sig’s values.

Oh I agree they are screwed. I just don’t believe that airman story. At all.

And now, on this Sunday, a word from Gun Jesus...

There's also been comments on the Wyoming Gun Channel of viewers with their own P320s that have tried this and have not been able to get a discharge. Something else to consider is the AXG and other metal frames have far better slide to frame fit since there's nothing in the frame that's going to flex.

After seeing Wyoming video, I decided to simply test my own custom...WCP grip, Grey Ghost Precision slide and barrel.

The slide could be moved towards the grip frame, downwards, at the frame rail.

Moving the trigger rearward, a little at a time, taking up the free play, then depressing the slide at the frame rail did nothing. Nothing. I had to truly pull the trigger to release the striker. I checked six times.

The slide, upon trigger pull, actually moved closer to the grip frame. This to me would seem to indicate that the striker would move closer and closer to the restraining part.

The out of battery preventing lever works. When the slide and barrel are visually in battery, the trigger can be pulled. What is interesting to me is that the slide and barrel are in battery well before the slide and barrel reach the forward travel stop. OK. If the barrel hood was any small distance away from the slide breech face, the trigger would not depress. I also checked the trigger motion when I manually restrained the out of battery control lever. No trigger pull. When I raised the lever, trigger would pull.

I looked at the little bits in the grip module, those in the FCU. Wear was centered. No visual burrs, under a magnifying glass. Striker had a defined hook-like shape, with a bit of a bevel. The two pivoting arms are free to move up and down, on the frame axis, and do not have excessive sideways freedom.

I blasted the parts with WD40 Dry Lube with PTFE, and they look great.

I'm thinking there will be a solution, a mechanical one. I can add a tabbed trigger, and wait out any of the actual fixes.

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
Oh I agree they are screwed. I just don’t believe that airman story. At all.

Why not?

I was made an ANG augmentee for a few weeks at Al Jaber Air Base in 2003 with the base USAF Security Forces unit and they seemed as well trained and disciplined with weapons handling as any unit I’ve seen and I was prior Army. In fact it was the Marines there who had a few ND incidents not the Air Force guys.

quote:

Originally posted by PASig:

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
Oh I agree they are screwed. I just don’t believe that airman story. At all.

Why not?

I was made an ANG augmentee for a few weeks at Al Jaber Air Base in 2003 with the base USAF Security Forces unit and they seemed as well trained and disciplined with weapons handling as any unit I’ve seen and I was prior Army. In fact it was the Marines there who had a few ND incidents not the Air Force guys.

I think the point is--there is more to the story we haven't heard yet. No doubt, SIG is going to be digging out of this for years, and their contracting officers are likely working overtime with the GOV to not cancel or alter any contracts.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
And now, on this Sunday, a word from Gun Jesus...

[FLASH_VIDEO]<iframe frameborder="0" height="360" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/rjEhgXAALL8" title="SIG's Real P320 Problem is no Longer Uncommanded Discharges" width="640"></iframe>[/FLASH_VIDEO]

I will always appreciate how you can appreciate Ian to be thorough and analytical. I think he makes good points, and I agree with him on just about everything he said. The one thing I'm questionable on is his suggestion that Sig ditch the P320 and migrate it's focus to the P365.

The P320 may be terminal, whether a failure point is identified or not. But I don't think that the P365 is a suitable replacement.

While the P365 is a solid conceal carry handgun choice, it's not designed to be a service pistol. Parts maintenance intervals are shorter and the internal components are not as robust.

Also, one of Ian's own primary criticisms of the P320 also applies to the P365...there's no trigger safety. If we think that at least a portion of the P320 NDs can be tied to a lack of this feature, how is the P365 going to fare any better once it goes into mainstream service? I personally know of 2 law enforcement NDs in our state involving P365s, but I have yet to hear of one with a P320, which if you listen to the internet is the far more dangerous choice.

In my experience the diminutive size of the P365 tempts people to stick it places and carry it in ways that they really shouldn't, especially considering the nature of it's trigger. I've seen some really dangerous stuff done with that gun...it's not a J-Frame, and shouldn't be treated as such.

If the P320 is really dead in the water, Sig needs to design an entirely new service pistol. Ideally it would use the existing P320 magazine, so at least those wouldn't be a total loss. Maybe grip modules, too, if it can be done without compromising the design. Then offer a buyback/upgrade plan where people can trade their old P320 in for a copy of the new gun, ideally for free but at least at a significant discount.

Even that might be too little too late, but at this point the gun is damaged goods regardless of the mechanical realities or Sig's PR claims.

quote:

Originally posted by PASig:

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
Oh I agree they are screwed. I just don’t believe that airman story. At all.

Why not?

I was made an ANG augmentee for a few weeks at Al Jaber Air Base in 2003 with the base USAF Security Forces unit and they seemed as well trained and disciplined with weapons handling as any unit I’ve seen and I was prior Army. In fact it was the Marines there who had a few ND incidents not the Air Force guys.

Well to start, there were NO witnesses, so it's all conjecture that's being 'reported' at this point, and honestly it doesn't make logical sense. I don't believe it to be accurate either. We'll just have to wait and see, and we may never know.

That said, nothing posted by 'pedropcola' was disparaging of the Airman, or his discipline/training, and it shouldn't be interpreted as such. What he posted was accurate...Thus far it's nothing but stories that are unsubstantiated, and thin on verifiable details.

I realize there will be pros and cons to this idea but I think one of the easiest ways for Sig to address this issue is redesigning the FCU to include an actual, non MIM thumb safety that blocks both trigger bar and the sear. Then offer to swap them into the existing guns for free.
And at this point, I think Cohen needs to seek other employment opportunities!

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:

While the P365 is a solid conceal carry handgun choice, it's not designed to be a service pistol. Parts maintenance intervals are shorter and the internal components are not as robust.

I like Ian McCollum and enjoy his videos. I hope he was not serious suggesting a version of the P365 as a service pistol. It would become another disaster for the company.