quote:

Originally posted by bronicabill:
Personally, I think that Sig can fix this problem and come out from under it in the long run, but not with Cohen at the helm. That is the FIRST problem that should be corrected!

That would be great, but they are also up against a serious logistics problem. Even if Cohen resigned on Monday morning and the new CEO revealed that they had come up with a new FCU or component that they would install for free on existing pistols, there is a 3 million unit backlog to work through. It would likely take years of their production to fix the pistols in circulation with military and LE (rightly) getting priority. I wouldn't expect to see consumer pistols upgraded any time soon, as nice as that would be.

^^^^^
Good point!

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:

quote:

Originally posted by Broadside:]
So where is the revised FBI report?

I am confused as to why the FBI only released the initial report. I would think that if new information came to light, they would have revised their initial report and released that.

My understanding is the FBI did not release the report, rather it was released by the MSP under a Freedom of Information Act Request. I have no clue how those work, but I’d guess the report that was requested was the one that got release and nothing more.

And this is where Sig's marketing strategy is failing them. If they were more transparent and open with information they could have released that story with all the follow-up details right up front, but instead they left it buried and some youtuber who hates them finally found it and either released just the part that made them look bad, or maybe just the part he had access to. Either way, they completely lost control of the narrative by not being up front about it.

And since they're doubling-down, continually denying everything, and suing everybody in sight, nobody is going to be willing to give them the benefit of the doubt on anything at this point, either.

Whatever engineering or production failures might exist, their marketing failures have made it 100x worse.

I fully expect the two commercial ranges in Central VA to ban the P320.

I appreciated the Wyoming YT video for its practical illumination of the mechanism. I'll check my "custom" P320 and see how the finely machined slide and WCP grip module compare.

I cannot imagine Sig USA suing people. Effectively I have two objects from Sig, both of which cannot be used, effectively, due to the rational risk reduction efforts taken by gun ranges. I can't sell them. I can't carry them.

What makes it worse is to at least this engineer (licensed, inactive, mechanical) the mechanism itself has design flaws. Some might saw that these were obscured. But, the heavy original trigger and a drop test resulting in a trigger weight reduction in follow-on FCU is tacit admission of a flawed design.

Bruce Gray

https://www.instagram.com/reel...MTdzbmNqbGw2bXNsMQ==

“We know what’s happening…we will tell you later…”

Well, ok I suppose. I hope no one gets shot in the meantime…

quote:

Originally posted by Sgt 127:
Bruce Gray

https://www.instagram.com/reel...MTdzbmNqbGw2bXNsMQ==

“We know what’s happening…we will tell you later…”

Well, ok I suppose. I hope no one gets shot in the meantime…

I really like and admire Bruce Gray. It really saddens me to see him caught up in this mess because SIG does NOT deserve someone like him on their side. Having said that I think it’s very disingenuous for Bruce or anyone else for that matter to deny that there’s a problem because they haven’t been able replicate it. There’s far too much anecdotal evidence at this point that the P320 is not suitable for a combat/LE/daily carry pistol. Maybe triggers are getting slightly pressed by gunk in holsters, or objects are pressing hard enough against holsters to take up some of the slack of the trigger, that all just further demonstrates that the pistol might be fine for a range toy but is not appropriate for use for the purposes that the military or LE agencies are buying the pistol for. Just as a hair trigger Hammerli Olympic shooting pistol would never be deemed suitable for carry use, the 320 has at minimum proven itself to be too intolerant of anything but perfect gun handling to be useful as anything other than a range toy in my mind. And none of that explains how a holstered weapon managed to discharge without any human input and kill a serviceman, nor does it explain how an MSP motor officer’s pistol managed to fire in his holster when he imparted no action to his pistol. At the end of the day there is a litany of variables involved in these incidents and the difficulty in reproducing some of these occurrences only demonstrates to me that all the variables have not been able to be lined up just right enough to duplicate the problem in controlled circumstances. To paraphrase Sherlock Holmes, “once you’ve eliminated the impossible, whatever remains no matter how improbable, must be the truth.”

quote:

Originally posted by Sgt 127:
Bruce Gray

https://www.instagram.com/reel...MTdzbmNqbGw2bXNsMQ==

“We know what’s happening…we will tell you later…”

Well, ok I suppose. I hope no one gets shot in the meantime…

I like Bruce. I think he's sincere, and I think he's genuinely trying to get to the bottom of this issue. His attitude and approach seem to be 100% the opposite of what we're seeing out of Sig corporate, and I really appreciate that he's trying to be open and transparent with what he's finding. I can only imagine what it's been like for him and his company dealing with this mess. I'm looking forward to hearing in detail what he's got to say.

Wow. Nothing to see here. Pretty obtuse. Keep your P320's and we have some fixes in the works. Get ready to send us your money while we obfuscate. Sounds like Sig.

Lets be clear.
The Sig P320 is a POS, full stop. That's my opinion.
There are much safer handguns to carry so as a responsible gun owner, if you continue to carry one or make excuses for Sig you're culpable.

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:

quote:

Originally posted by Broadside:]
So where is the revised FBI report?

I am confused as to why the FBI only released the initial report. I would think that if new information came to light, they would have revised their initial report and released that.

My understanding is the FBI did not release the report, rather it was released by the MSP under a Freedom of Information Act Request. I have no clue how those work, but I’d guess the report that was requested was the one that got release and nothing more.

On the Fairburn video:

I haven’t yet to finish it, so I apologize for my questions:

Does he address the fact that the MSP completed its transition to the P320 after and despite the incident with its trooper, the initial FBI report, and the subsequent FBI/SIG testing?

Does he address the FBI’s ability to recreate the scratched on the trigger guard and make the holstered gun fire by using the keys the MSP trooper had in his hand?

I watched the entire Fairburn video earlier today and I do not recall that he addressed any of those items.

He addressed two issues. One I agree with and the other I don’t.

First he says the trigger is too light. I agree with that.

Second, he says that the P320 is made with low quality, MIM parts which is contributing to the problems. But he provided no proof that this was happening.

Man, FORTY Plus pages of anecdotal 'evidence' (not actual repeatable/verifiable evidence!), conjecture and borderline wild (pure?) speculation...The HATE is Strong!

Outright dismissing/questioning the judgement (integrity?) of perhaps one of THE MOST knowledgeable and respected experts in the Firearms industry! There's even those who, due to their profession, are required to gather provable evidence in order to perform their duties, except in this case, minds are made up. Damn...

Oh it's repeatable alright. Hundreds of reported uncommanded discharges, successful lawsuits etc, all with the P320.

quote:

Originally posted by Blackwater:
Wow. Nothing to see here. Pretty obtuse. Keep your P320's and we have some fixes in the works. Get ready to send us your money while we obfuscate. Sounds like Sig.

Lets be clear.
The Sig P320 is a POS, full stop. That's my opinion.
There are much safer handguns to carry so as a responsible gun owner, if you continue to carry one or make excuses for Sig you're culpable.

Bruce Gray is a friend of mine. I know him to be an honest man, and sincere. We're going to give him the benefit of the doubt. If anyone has a problem with that, they have a problem with me.

Bruce finds himself in a difficult position right now, and I'll not tolerate members taking potshots at him. In that video, he says there is simply too much information to disseminate all at once. We're going to listen to what he has to say, as the information becomes available.

If you ask Bruce Gray, he will tell you flat-out that when he registered for this forum almost twenty-two years ago, Grayguns was a one-man shop in a tiny workspace, and he attributes his early relationship with SIGforum with being instrumental in building his business; no one else, just SIGforum. Ask him. I was surprised when he first told me this, and he's said it to me several times over the years. I'm quite proud of that, and I will not turn my back on him. He's never given me any reason to do so.

Keep this in mind when his name comes up in this forum, gentlemen.

Just my opinion. If there wasn't an issue with the P320, there should be no need for parts to nibble around the edges.

Factory guns shouldn't require re-work by a third party to be deemed safe.

You're welcome to offer up your opinions. I'm simply telling you that I know the man and that there is no reason for you or anyone else to be suspicious of his intentions.

I don't vouch for many people, but I vouch for Bruce Gray.

I have two 320s (M17 and P320X Compact). I have enjoyed them both but, as the anecdotal evidence has continued to build along with the sage comments offered by others on this forum, they have been relegated to the safe at this point. I’m still very happy with my P365X which I carry daily. I was getting to ready to take a look at trading one (along with a threaded barrel and magazines) for a Springfield Echelon Compact to go with the full size Echelon I already have. At least SA with smart enough to have the Croatians build theirs with a trigger dingus. After the USAF memo, I’m afraid I’d have to add too much cash to make that happen.

I too am disappointed by SIGs response, being a SIG P226 owner since 1990. It’s a tough spot to be in as the hole continues to get deeper and any solutions come with an implied admission of culpability.

I have a very high opinion of Bruce Gray and think he is one of the most reliable and honest people on the planet. But that's not really related to the overall discussion on this pistol.
This is a gun, completely mechanical. its a system for many users with holsters and lights and optics and what not. But its still overall a mechanical system, it doesn't discharge from vodoo or magic or wtf curses. There are reasons.
I look at these reports of discharges and think of it like an airplane crash investigation. You have to keep putting the pieces back toghether till you can reliably replicate how they happen. Till then you can't fix it. I'm hoping that SIG has a huge team doing investigation to figure out each one of these, trying to replicate it, and determine the cause. Relative to Bruce to the extent that others like Bruce that understand the gun do that, the better we all are off. lots of guns have discharges that merit investigation and analysis, probably glock with its installed base the biggest. But till someone can put a reliable, practical, and repeatable theory of how these happens I'm a skeptic on what is happening...

quote:

I fully expect the two commercial ranges in Central VA to ban the P320

Can someone explain this to me. If your range has range rules that mean an accidental (or negligent) discharge has the potential to injure someone. You are idiots IMO. What scenario makes that possible to contemplate and require banning.
I expect EVERY gun on the ranges and matches that I supervise to have the risk of discharging. So we don't allow you to point them loaded at stuff like people where that is an issue. Help me out here...

quote:

Originally posted by hrcjon:
Can someone explain this to me.

It shouldn't be necessary to have it explained to you. We live in a litigious society.

quote:

Originally posted by hrcjon:

quote:

I fully expect the two commercial ranges in Central VA to ban the P320

Can someone explain this to me. If your range has range rules that mean an accidental (or negligent) discharge has the potential to injure someone. You are idiots IMO. What scenario makes that possible to contemplate and require banning.
I expect EVERY gun on the ranges and matches that I supervise to have the risk of discharging. So we don't allow you to point them loaded at stuff like people where that is an issue. Help me out here...

Seriously? A bullet spontaneously jumps out of a holstered gun. Through the foot of the guy carrying it and ricochets into another shooters calf. Most ranges are concrete. If it leaves that gun, pointed down and back just a little, it’s going to hit something. Or, someone.


It wasn’t “pointed” at anybody. But, it’s a gun that, correct or not, has a reputation for doing that exact thing.

Unless all drills start with the gun pointed downrange, laying on a table, it’s entirely possible an errant round will hit someone from a holster.

quote:

Originally posted by hrcjon:

...You have to keep putting the pieces back toghether till you can reliably replicate how they happen. Till then you can't fix it. ... But till someone can put a reliable, practical, and repeatable theory of how these happens I'm a skeptic on what is happening...

I agree, but something is happening, somehow. Which means the additional risk above carrying other pistols, e.g. my P229, is more than zero.

Maybe it is user errors. Maybe it is the WML holsters. Maybe it is professional armorers replacing parts during maintenance which are either the wrong part or are out of tolerance. I have my opinions, but a hole through my femoral artery or through one of my grandkids is 100% unacceptable.

I am hopeful that a mitigation will be forthcoming.