barndg00,

Of the various vaccines available the Moderna seemed to be the one people mentioned the most aches, fevers, nausea, chills ext showing some kind of reaction by the immune system. Of the people I know who have been vaccinated it’s really almost exclusively those who got the Moderna vaccine (especially the second shot) who experienced some kind of reaction that was worse than the first injection. It was quite the ass kicker for me and had me feeling like I had a mild case of flu for 2 days.

Do you think this is any way related to the Moderna vaccine apparently performing slightly better than the others against the latest variant of the virus or at least maybe I should say seeing less of a decline in effectiveness compared to the other vaccines?

Barndg00,

Thank you for the information on what you are seeing from the ground floor.

Are you seeing any cases of reinfection in those who have already had & recovered from Covid? I know there is a push for even those who recovered from Covid to get vaccinated and wanted to know if you thought it was necessary or not?

In your research of the mRNA based vaccines / overall technology - do you have any concerns or insight regarding the concerns of antibody dependency enhancement? It is my understanding that the earlier research into mRNA vaccines had issues with ADE during the animal testing phase of their trials. Not that ADE is specific to this form of vaccines. And of course in the research over the years, the ADE issue may have been worked out.

@barndog thanks for your insight. It’s easier to digest when it’s coming from a long time member, an “invisible friend” if you will.
Stay safe and thanks again!

I will try to answer the questions as best I can.

Kimber1911 -
Why must I wait until being hospitalized before I am treated? The only oral treatment that would be available from a physician would be dexamethasone (a steroid). It has only been shown to be helpful for patients who are hypoxic (low oxygen levels). There are monoclonal antibody treatments available, but the are intravenous and thus require either an ED or infusion center to give. We are giving them to high risk patients who come to the ED and do not require hospitalization prior to discharging them home. Remdesivir is also IV and not approved for outpatient treatment. With regards to ivermectin, yes, it has been shown to inhibit replication of COVID and other viruses in laboratory settings. What is not said is that the concentrations of the drug used for those studies are WAY above the levels safe for humans (about 9 times according to the article I will cite below). In-vitro studies at approved human dosing levels have not been conducted to my knowledge. Many trials have been done with ivermectin, but few have been of high quality (randomized controlled trials) and most have not been peer reviewed or published beyond fancy websites. Is there the possibility ivermectin helps patients with COVID? Yes, but current data does not support its use.

https://ebm.bmj.com/content/ea...6/bmjebm-2021-111678

What is detrimental with some of the early treatment options?
Well, ivermectin does have potential toxic effects, particularly at high doses. Things like seizures. So prescribing a patient a treatment without reasonable supported evidence that it is effective is viewed as simply subjecting them to risk of side effects without likely benefit. I’m not sure what other “early treatment options” you would like information about.

https://www.drugs.com/sfx/iver...in-side-effects.html

stickman428 - With regards to the Moderna vaccine vs Pfizer, I don’t know that one is getting a better immune response than the other. Many of my colleagues had flu like responses to the Pfizer, I did not. Same with Moderna. I don’t have a large enough sample population to say if there is a significant difference between them honestly. We are just now 8-9 months out from the earliest large deliveries of the Pfizer vaccine, which was first given to health care workers and nursing homes (the sick elderly do not generally have as robust a response to vaccinations as the general population). Moderna was several weeks later. Thus, given that immunity (at least in terms of antibody levels) wanes over time, Moderna would be expected to hold up better compared to Pfizer for at least a few weeks. I think we will need a couple years to truly know if one is significantly better than the other, best would be a randomized trial comparing them head-to-head in a matched population, but that almost certainly will never happen. Decidedly, we will need both and others as the world population cannot be served by a single company.

Cyanide357 - There were some early studies cautioning that mRNA vaccines could actually worsen COVID and make it more infectious due to antibodies produced facilitating the virus’ penetration into cells. That is not happening. If it were on any significant level, we would be seeing patients who were vaccinated infected more commonly than those who were not. We would be seeing vaccinated patients get sicker than those who were not. Neither of those scenarios is what we have been seeing for months. The vaccines are not enhancing this virus in any way that I can see.

As for COVID reinfections, I am seeing some of them, but not many. Much like I am seeing breakthrough infections among the vaccinated. With regards to the recommendation that people who had COVID get vaccinated, that is based on the fact that we do not know about an individual’s experience with the disease. If you had a mild case, or even asymptomatic case, did your body get much of a challenge to develop lasting immunity? We don’t know. Again, it appears the vaccinated population’s immunity wanes, and it certainly stands to reason that natural immunity would wane as well. It does with other coronaviruses like the cold virus. Thus, we get colds year after year, even multiple times in the same year. Given this, if I had had COVID, I would still get the vaccine, thinking of it as getting a booster to help build my immunity even stronger.

quote:

Originally posted by Hammer1967:
@barndog thanks for your insight. It’s easier to digest when it’s coming from a long time member, an “invisible friend” if you will.
Stay safe and thanks again!

Concur and well said!

Thank you, barndg00, for bringing some clarity to this mess we are in.

For what it's worth, i have not blamed doctors for this nor painted them with a broad brush.

Here, we have seen our tyrant bitch governor tell doctors what they cannot do, but we have not blamed the physicians.

As you suggested to others, we had a sincere conversation with our family physician (internist).

God bless you and keep you safe.

barndog, thank you for the detailed response. I really appreciate that.

What I find so incredibly frustrating with this whole thing is my inability to get info like yours reliably from media outlet. Lately I have been reading anything AND EVERYTHING including foreign articles that I sometimes have to translate myself. There is so much contradictory stuff out there that I don’t know who is speculating, who is propagandizing and who is trying to do their best to understand the situation. I suppose those trying their best to understand this may seem contradictory at times but maybe it might not be intentional. Maybe this is a result of more info becoming available or new info that proves old theories incorrect? It’s so frustrating. This is a perfect storm for authoritarians who have abused every opportunity to gain power, wealth etc.

I appreciate your insight, thoughts on this matter and letting us know your experience firsthand working on the front line. Thank you again.

What I am struggling to understand is if this didn’t come from China and if China is indeed just a victim of a nasty naturally occurring bug whose origin is unknown why are they not helping the world to understand and try to find the origin. Is such a thing even possible? Why are they going out of their way to stop research into covid origins and why does it seem like when they have had a choice to be open or secretive they seem to have chosen the latter? Is it because of the economic impact? Public perception? Fear of retribution whether earned or not?

barndg00 - Just wanted to post a sincere thank you for sharing some actual medical/scientific knowledge and your anecdotal accounts of seeing this virus in the real world. I hope you and yours stay safe and I sincerely appreciate the work that you do. I cannot imagine the difficulty of being in your profession right now.

quote:

Originally posted by stickman428: There is so much contradictory stuff out there that I don’t know who is speculating, who is propagandizing and who is trying to do their best to understand the situation and may seem contradictory but it might not be intentional and a result of more info becoming available or new info that proves old theories incorrect.

The media is making a mess of reporting the ongoing research. Nearly every day there is a "new study" that reports XXX is XXXX less effective than Y (or whatever). That may be true, but it is often reported in a way that makes it seem as though the new replaces and supersedes the old knowledge base. That is rarely the way scientific literature works. The "new study" needs to be placed in context in terms of sample size, quality and other parameters and then simply added to the accumulating pile of knowledge. At some point, you start to get enough results that concur with each other to form a valid conclusion.

Don't get hung up on a single bit of research.

Barndog what is your response to the many professionals calling the vaccine the clot shot or toxic even poisonous? They are suing to have this vaccine prevented from being distributed and are ringing the alarm bell for citizens not to take the shot. What are their motivations? Are they the crack pots? I think seeing these professionals giving the other side of the coin is what’s giving many hesitancy. Add in the fact that these people’s messages are getting suppressed and deplatformed it certainly causes distrust.

Also the fact that none of the manufacturers can be held liable for any adverse effects or even death is unsettling. On one hand we are told how safe and effective and wonderful this drug is but no one is willing to stand behind that. We accept it at our own risk. If a gun manufacturer can be held liable for how someone uses their product I would certainly think a drug manufacturer could also be held liable for their product. Particularly when we are on the verge of everyone being forced to accept it.

Add in the government willingly opening the southern border to illegals entering without any medical vetting, no vaccine requirement placed on them and then being transported randomly around the country contradicts everything else they are telling us about this pandemic. There are just too many reasons and too many questions for me to feel comfortable about getting this vaccine. I feel too much hurried pressure to comply.

quote:

Originally posted by lastmanstanding:
Barndog what is your response to the many professionals calling the vaccine the clot shot or toxic even poisonous? They are suing to have this vaccine prevented from being distributed and are ringing the alarm bell for citizens not to take the shot. What are their motivations? Are they the crack pots?

Some of them are. I frequently see things from Dr Mercola quoted. That guy was a batshit crazy snake oil salesman decades before Covid arrived. He has been on everything from anti-fluoride, anti-amalgam, etc for nearly as long as I've been in practice. Of course, he happens to sell all manner of supplements to cure you on his website.

quote:

barndog, thank you for the detailed response. I really appreciate that.

I appreciate your insight, thoughts on this matter and letting us know your experience firsthand working on the front line. Thank you again.

Yes, Thank you, barndg00, for sharing your clinical experience and observations.

Although I'm not yet convinced that I should take the jab myself, your experience does weigh in favor and makes me feel somewhat better about my wife having taken the jab.

Yes, thanks Doctor. As stated, if in doubt talk to a trusted physician who knows your health risks and lifestyle. That's what I've being doing. Perhaps what we really need is herd immunity from the MSM and other types trying to continually spread panic and fear in the herd.

ETA: I'm waiting for the Novavax myself.

155,000 Hospitalized for Vaccine Effects… And Why Our Government Is Hiding This Fact
by Dr. Marilyn Singleton

Note: Dr. Singleton is a member of the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons, AAPS.

In Patrick Henry’s June 4, 1788, speech, “A Wrong Step Now and the Republic Will Be Lost Forever,” he pleaded for less power to the federal government and the preservation of states’ and individual rights as a condition for ratification of the Constitution. We got our Bill of Rights, including freedom of religion, speech, assembly and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. We also have the right to be secure in our “persons, houses, papers, and effects against unreasonable searches and seizures.” And we cannot be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law.

Despite the Constitution’s admonitions, fear and anxiety have led to an increase in federal powers. The Great Depression gave birth to some 70 new agencies and programs. The mother of all programs was the Social Security Act, constitutionally justified under Congress’ constitutional taxing power. We have been so irrational as to deem it constitutional to place American citizens in internment camps with no due process.

COVID-19 is the latest justification for government overreach in the name of public health. There is little reason for confidence given the CDC’s faulty COVID-19 tests, the conflicting information on the usefulness of wearing masks and censoring of effective treatments that were not on the infallible Dr. Fauci’s personal favorite list. (Note: The World Health Organization recommended against the use of his favored drug, remdesivir).

Adding to the erosion of trust is the change in definition of a COVID-19 “case.” Prior to the vaccination rollout, any positive COVID-19 test – with or without symptoms – was a “case.” Now, a positive test in a vaccinated person is only considered a “case” if the patient was hospitalized or died.

The federal health bureaucracy is encouraging businesses and local governments to mandate vaccines, despite the growing list of adverse effects, their modest effectiveness against the predominant Delta variant and the imminent need for booster shots.

According to data gathered from the Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System, as of Aug. 23, 2021, there have been 13,068 deaths, 154,142 hospitalizations, 5,617 cases of anaphylaxis, 4,681 cases of Bell’s Palsy, 1,607 miscarriages, 4,861 cases of myocarditis/pericarditis, 13,812 life-threatening reactions and 17,228 permanently disabled, among other issues. On one hand, it is arguable that this is a pittance given that 360,634,287 doses of Pfizer, Moderna, or Johnson & Johnson/Janssen (J&J) vaccines have been given. On the other hand, a 2011 Harvard study concluded that only 1% of adverse events are reported to the government system.

Other drugs have been removed for less. The 1976 H1N1 (swine flu) vaccine was rapidly developed over fears that the flu would overtake the nation as did the 1918 Spanish Flu. The vaccinations were halted after 45 million doses and 450 cases of Guillain Barré Syndrome (ascending paralysis). As it turned out, millions did not die.

A 2011 Harvard study concluded that only 1% of adverse events are reported to the government system.

We all remember the limb deformities at birth caused by the 1956 over-the-counter anti-nausea drug, thalidomide. It took four years to make the connection. Another hidden dragon was diethystilbesterol (DES). Believed to reduce miscarriages, DES was given to pregnant women for 30 years. In 1971, after it was discovered that DES could cause genital abnormalities and vaginal cancer, the FDA withdrew approval for pregnant women. It took five years to discover that the anti-inflammatory drug Vioxx may cause heart disease. One report estimated that some 140,000 people suffered from coronary artery disease because of Vioxx.

We do not know all the risks of the current COVID-19 vaccines available in the United States. Yet the vaccines are given in drive-through parking lots with little to no discussion.

Moderna’s, Pfizer’s, and J&J’s fact sheets warn that the “vaccine may not protect all recipients.” The Moderna and Pfizer fact sheets give special mention to myocarditis and pericarditis reported “during mass vaccination outside of clinical trials.” J&J specifically notes the large vein blood clots.

Additionally, all the fact sheets note that “additional adverse reactions, some of which may be serious, may become apparent with more widespread use of the Moderna [Pfizer, J&J] COVID-19 Vaccine.” It appears that we are nonconsenting participants in the final phase of the vaccine trials.

Given that no one knows the risks, how can physicians (much less the “provider” in the drive-through window) give the patients the information needed to decide whether the potential benefit of taking the drug is worth the risk?

Drunk with power and preying on our fears, the federal government is having corporations do its bidding. Mandates unsupported by medical science could be the greatest threat to our lives and liberty.

Take heart. The spirit of Patrick Henry is alive. A professor – using the science – won a medical exemption from vaccination because his antibodies from a prior COVID-19 infection are longer lasting that those of a vaccine. Airline pilots are suing for a restraining order against mandates until “the science/medicine is more fully developed and better understood.” Teachers, health care workers, first responders are demanding choice.

Since the establishment of our republic, we have taken some very wrong steps. Let’s not let the COVID-19 response become another one.

https://noqreport.com/2021/08/...is-hiding-this-fact/

quote:

Originally posted by barndg00:
I will try to answer the questions as best I can.

Kimber1911 -
Why must I wait until being hospitalized before I am treated?

barndg00 Thanks for the info but hasn't REGEN-COV been given an EUA? Could you also address what is known about the J&J vaccine and why it isn't on the favorites list. It would seem that because it is more like a traditional vaccine and knowing what we know about the effectiveness of the mRNA shots needing boosters that the J&J might be a better alternative.

chellim1, I wonder what the numbers of our population are that have severe enough allergies that something like eating peanut butter, shellfish or eggs or other commonly consumed things could cause hospitalization or worse. There might be the problem that it is nearly impossible to craft a vaccine or any medicine that some portion of the population won’t have an allergy or negative reaction to. Especially when you are trying to develop it as quickly as possible.

There could be the issue of fearing that those with an agenda and mouthpiece will use the situation stated above to make something seem way more dangerous than it actually is. When you compound the fact that there is a real push to develop something as quickly as possible and there is an inability to test something extensively over time it is completely normal that distrust and fear will arise. And I’m not saying that’s bad it is to be expected as it is logical. The media does a truly awful job of being objective and focusing on facts. This makes a sensitive and difficult subject exponentially more problematic.

quote:

chellim1, I wonder what the numbers of our population are that have severe enough allergies that something like eating peanut butter, shellfish or eggs or other commonly consumed things could cause hospitalization or worse. There might be the problem that it is nearly impossible to craft a vaccine or any medicine that some portion of the population won’t have an allergy or negative reaction to.

Yep. I don't know.
And I don't fault anyone for their personal choice, whether to take it or not.
I believe in informed consent, but that's awfully difficult in this environment.
Personally, I have asthma and many allergies so I'm very hesitant to take this. I don't think I should be excluded from society, including employment, for my decision.

Posted by Chellim1,

quote:

Personally, I have asthma and many allergies so I'm very hesitant to take this. I don't think I should be excluded from society, including employment, for my decision.

I agree with you 100%. No one should force you or require you to decide between a vaccine or losing your job or ability to travel and basically make you end up excluded from society. A free society should allow people to make an informed decision based on their circumstances and respect the decision even if it they don’t agree with it.

quote:

Personally, I have asthma and many allergies so I'm very hesitant to take this. I don't think I should be excluded from society, including employment, for my decision.

Exactly, this exclusionary tactic, shaming, all the things that have come from social media to the forefront, we've always had people who want power and control, SM has given them this through en-mass ability to shout out....

The only way to clap back is to leave that employer for one that won't make you take the shot....

Barns post is timely for sure. He definitely sounds like he has first had experience. I too appreciate his efforts to care for those affected. I have a sister who is a nurse and has first hand experience as well.

A couple of thoughts.

What about the situation in Israel. With 80% of the population vaccinated.

What is going on in other parts of the world? Africa, India, Korea, Asia, Sweden, Switzerland, Finland, you name the country. Are they burning bodies by the tens of thousands. Or is mum the word until the producers have enough product and people with the money that are ready to pony up. I am asking because I do not have the answer.

What about the hundreds (probably thousands) of doctors, virologists, healthcare professionals who are not on board with these drugs and the science they provide.

I am not against vaccines at all.

But this timely hard core full court press is obviously designed to pressure people into doing the poke.

And if you are being told it is a numbers game. Well, yes it is. But who's numbers?

"qUOTE"
"First off, the vaccine adverse event reporting system is bogus. Literally any person in the world can go in and report any number of adverse reactions. Whether they are vaccinated or not. Look up the site and see for yourself. There is no investigation after a report is made. It is a garbage data set that was set up when people like Jenny McCarthy was touting that vaccines cause autism."

While that is probably true. It would disingenuous to infer that the reporting of these drugs efficacy is, if not bogus as well. Is at least cooked in the very short time they have been offered. We do know now that they do not prevent you from getting it or spreading. But do lessen the severity of it.
I have said it is so early in this thing. We know so little about it and how to treat it. And the vax was created and trialed on millions in an unprecedented window of time.
That does not mean it is not of value by any means.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: old rugged cross,