quote:

Originally posted by chellim1:

quote:

I did not ask him if he was vaccinated because I personally believe that's private, but from knowing the man for the past 15 years, and reading his responses to my questions, my bet would be that he isn't.

That has been my biggest issue from the beginning. Your personal medical decision is just that: personal and private.
It's none of your employer's business. They shouldn't ask, and if asked you don't have to tell them.
But what we have now is the government leaning on employers to mandate an experimental treatment.

Don't ask, don't tell. My body, my choice.

I decided to get the shot a few months ago. I was against it initially, but after 100m got it, I figured it was a large enough sample size that I wasn't going to drop dead. If I had waited til now, I wouldn't have done it. If someone asks me for my papers, even though I've had the shot I'd refuse to provide my medical information to strangers.

It amazes me how voter ID is racist, yet being asked to travel somewhere get a doctor's opinion. Then travel somewhere else get a shot, then take off work a third time to get a second shot, then possibly take off a fourth day to recover from the shot is not onerous. Especially considering black and brown people are the least vaccinated people in the country.

A few months ago I got into a heated argument with a good friend of mine over the vaccine. He absolutely could not fathom why I was so indifferent about getting the shot and that I actually got the vaccine. He seemed truly convinced that there was a great chance the vaccine I received was eventually going to kill me. I told him I don’t really care that much either way about it and that my wife and mother signed me up for the shot and I didn’t care enough to refuse it. I pointed to the motorcycles in my garage (we were arguing in my garage) and said “if anything is going to kill me statistically speaking it’s going to be one of those damn things, not this damn vaccine.” Thus far the motos have come harrowingly close to succeeding in that endeavor twice, the shot only made me feel like shit for two or three days. He knows my opinion is that this is either an intentional or unintentional leak of a bio weapon or at the bare minimum the nastiest lab made virus ever to leak out into the wild.

Why would my government and pharmaceutical companies conspire to kill me or act so negligent in this hyper litigious society we live in that their drug would cause my death? To the government and big pharmaceutical companies I’m basically a slave or worker bee. Killing me is illogical. They know people are not going to keep getting booster shots year after year just look at the participation rate with the flu shot every year. To my great sadness he was unable to come up with a good rebuttal.

Exclusive: Samples From Early Wuhan COVID Patients Had Genetically Modified Henipah, One of Two Types of Viruses Sent From Canadian Lab

https://www.theepochtimes.com/...KMVDEwhtC2e39%2BU%3D

Samples from early Wuhan COVID-19 patients show the presence of genetically modified Henipah virus, an American scientist has found.

Henipah was one of the two types of viruses sent to China by Chinese-born scientists from a Canadian laboratory at the center of a controversy over the firing of the scientists and collaboration with Chinese military researchers. It is not clear whether the virus found in the Chinese samples is related to the virus samples sent by the Canadian lab, which were shipped in late March 2019.

The finding was confirmed for The Epoch Times by another qualified scientist.

The evidence was first found by Dr. Steven Quay, a Seattle-based physician-scientist and former faculty member at the Stanford University School of Medicine, who looked at early COVID-19 samples uploaded by scientists at the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV) shortly after China informed the World Health Organization about the SARS-CoV-2 outbreak.

The samples from the patients, who reportedly were found to have the “unknown pneumonia” in December 2019, were uploaded to the genetic sequence database, GenBank, on the website of the U.S. National Institute of Health (NIH).

Quay says that while other scientists around the world were mostly interested in examining the genome of SARS-CoV-2 in the samples uploaded by the WIV scientists, he wanted to see what else was in the samples collected from the patients.

So he collaborated with a few other scientists to analyze sequences from the samples.

“We started fishing inside for weird things,” Quay told The Epoch Times.

What they found, he says, are the results of what could likely be contamination from different experiments in the lab making their way into the samples, as well as evidence of Henipah virus.

“We found genetic manipulation of the Nipah virus, which is more lethal than Ebola.” Nipah is a type of Henipah virus.

The Epoch Times asked Joe Wang, PhD, who formerly spearheaded a vaccine development program for SARS in Canada with one of the world’s leading pharmaceutical companies, to verify the finding. Wang is currently the president of NTD Television Canada, the sister company of The Epoch Times in Canada.

After examining the evidence, Wang said he was able to replicate Quay’s findings on the Henipah virus. He explains that the genetic manipulation of the virus was likely for the purposes of vaccine development.

Documents released by the Canadian government state WIV’s intended use of the virus samples sent by Canada as “stock virus culturing,” which in simpler terms means storage of the viruses while keeping them alive. Genetic manipulation would not be within the scope of this description.

Winnipeg Lab
The firing of Chinese-born scientist Xiangguo Qiu and her husband, Keding Cheng, from the National Microbiology laboratory (NML) in Winnipeg has been the subject of much controversy in Canada, with opposition parties pressing the government for more details on the case, and the government refusing to release information citing national security and privacy concerns.

Qiu and Cheng along with several Chinese students were escorted out of NML, Canada’s only Level 4 lab, in July 2019, amid a police investigation. The two scientists were formally fired in January 2021.

The Public Health Agency of Canada (PHAC), which is in charge of NML, said the termination was the result of an “administrative matter” and “possible breaches of security protocols,” but has declined to provide further details, citing security and privacy concerns.



During her time at NML, Qiu travelled several times in an official capacity to WIV, helping train personnel on Level 4 safety. The Globe and Mail later reported that scientists at NML have been collaborating with Chinese military researchers on deadly pathogens, and that one of the Chinese military researchers worked at the high-security Winnipeg lab for a period of time.

Documents and emails released by PHAC show that the shipment of Henipah and Ebola samples was done with the permission of NML authorities.

In one of the emails sent in September 2018, David Safronetz, chief of special pathogens at PHAC, informs then-head of NML Matthew Gilmour and other lab administrators about the request from WIV for the shipment of the samples, saying “I trust the lab.”

In response, Gilmour asks about the nature of the work that will be done at the Wuhan lab, and why the lab doesn’t get the material from “other, more local labs.” He also tells Safronetz that it’s “good to know that you trust this group,” asking how NML was connected with them.

In his reply, Safronetz doesn’t specifically say what the samples will be used for in China, but notes they will only be sent once all paperwork and certification is completed. He also says the WIV is requesting the material from NML “due to collaboration” with Qiu.

He adds, “Historically, it’s also been easier to obtain material from us as opposed to US labs. I don’t think other, closer labs have the ability to ship these materials.”

Gilmour resigned from his position at NML in May 2020 and joined a UK-based bioresearch company.

MPs have asked NML management why shipment of the samples was allowed and whether they knew if China performs any Gain of Function (GoF) research at WIV. GoF research involves increasing the lethal level (virulence) or transmissibility of pathogens.

NML’s acting scientific director general Guillaume Poliquin told MPs during a parliamentary committee meeting on March 22 that the lab only sent the samples to WIV after receiving assurance that no GoF research would take place.

Conservative MP John Williamson pressed for more answers, saying the word of the state-run Chinese lab can’t be trusted as the Chinese regime “has a history of theft and lies.”

The issue of GoF research at WIV has been a point of contention in the United States between lawmakers and Dr. Anthony Fauci, NIH’s head of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, whose organization has funded research (through EcoHealth Alliance) on coronaviruses at the Wuhan lab. U.S. Sen. Rand Paul says published work from WIV on coronaviruses shows the lab is conducting GoF research, a charge Fauci denies.

The Epoch Times sought comment from PHAC, including as to how the agency addressed issues of intellectual property and the development of any products such as vaccines with WIV, but didn’t hear back by time of publication.

Despite repeated requests by opposition parties for more details related to the firing of the two NML scientists, the Liberal government has refused to provide records, saying there are national security and privacy concerns.

After the House of Commons issued an order for the government to disclose the information, the government took the Speaker of the House to court to obtain confirmation from a judge that it can withhold the documents. The government later dropped its court case once Prime Minister Justin Trudeau called an election and Parliament was dissolved.

Editor’s note: This article was updated to include more information from Canadian government documents.

quote:

Originally posted by stickman428:

Why would my government and pharmaceutical companies conspire to kill me...

Bill Gates among other Great Resetters has suggested depopulation is an answer to many "problems".

If you really wanted to kill off mankind or drastically lower the population why not release a far more infectious and lethal bio weapon or experimental play toy for scientists to accidentally release?

Why not just start a war between the USA and China if you truly believe overpopulation is a problem. These people cannot truly be that stupid. They have traveled and seen as I have how big this world is and how much of it is completely void of any humans.

You can’t accurately predict the civilian casualties in a war like that. It may very well be that the most controllable people that you want to survive such a thing would the first to die.

People obsessed with control aren’t going to introduce any entropy into the situation they’re trying to manipulate.

OK, guys. This is kinda silly.

As I have said before, I work in an Emergency Department as a physician, and have taken care of numerous COVID patients since the outset of the pandemic. This is the source of my anecdotal experience.

Since the vaccine became widely available, we initially saw a marked drop in the number of positive cases, at least until the Delta variant showed up. Clearly, there is the ability for Delta to infect vaccinated people. However, I do not believe that the total number of “breakthrough” infections is very high. Unfortunately, the data that the CDC has been collecting has not included surveillance of vaccinated populations to determine what the rate of a symptomatic infections is in that population, and I believe this is one of many mistakes the CDC has made through the course of the pandemic. Not knowing how many asymptomatic infections there are among the vaccinated hampers proper guidance for people to make a judgement for themselves as to whether or not to take the vaccine. Their general failure to present publicly how little they were sure of during the early days cost them the trust of the general public. They initially said masks were unnecessary, instead of rightly appealing to the population as a whole that they didn’t know, but really needed to save the PPE for hospitals until greater supplies could be made available. The CDC does not trust the public to make a decision on risk benefit analyses.

My experience is this. I have seen hundreds of patient’s with COVID since the beginning. I have been exposed closely to the faces of patients with COVID as I intubated them and put them on ventilators, while wearing a mask (admittedly most of the time with an N95 when they were available. I was wearing the same 7 masks for 8 months, using aa dehydrator at home to disinfect them.). I have never had COVID. I got the Pfizer vaccine as soon as it was available, first shot in December. Since June, we have seen a resurgence of COVID cases in the hospital, to the point that the hospital has now again had to cancel all non-emergent surgeries, and we routinely have 20-40 patients in the ED waiting on beds, which prevents us from seeing patients who present to the lobby. Wait times of 8+ hours are not uncommon, where as previously 2 hours was a long wait on a busy day.

Importantly, I have not seen many vaccinated patients with COVID (honestly, less than 10) and only admitted two of those, one with cancer on chemotherapy, and the other with multiple medical problems to make her high risk. Neither of them required ICU care. Virtually everyone requiring admission to the hospital that we are seeing is unvaccinated. (And on that note, of course people are “unvaccinated” for 2 weeks after their first shot, their immune system hasn’t had time to build up immunity yet after the vaccine dose.).

Yes, this is anecdotal evidence, but it bears out based on the experiences of fellow ED physicians I know across the country. I have not seen anyone with a serious complication from the vaccine, nothing more than flu-like symptoms. No blood clots, no neurological symptoms at all. I know that my immunity in terms of antibodies is waning, but am hopeful that memory B cells stand ready to fight should I get exposed. Unfortunately, we don’t have scientific evidence about that yet. So, as such, I will be getting a booster as soon as it is available. I hope you will consider this in your own decisions. I am really tired, this past 18 months has been an awful time to be in healthcare.

quote:

Originally posted by stickman428:
A few months ago I got into a heated argument with a good friend of mine over the vaccine. He absolutely could not fathom why I was so indifferent about getting the shot and that I actually got the vaccine. He seemed truly convinced that there was a great chance the vaccine I received was eventually going to kill me. I told him I don’t really care that much either way about it and that my wife and mother signed me up for the shot and I didn’t care enough to refuse it. I pointed to the motorcycles in my garage (we were arguing in my garage) and said “if anything is going to kill me statistically speaking it’s going to be one of those damn things, not this damn vaccine.” Thus far the motos have come harrowingly close to succeeding in that endeavor twice, the shot only made me feel like shit for two or three days. He knows my opinion is that this is either an intentional or unintentional leak of a bio weapon or at the bare minimum the nastiest lab made virus ever to leak out into the wild.

Why would my government and pharmaceutical companies conspire to kill me or act so negligent in this hyper litigious society we live in that their drug would cause my death? To the government and big pharmaceutical companies I’m basically a slave or worker bee. Killing me is illogical. They know people are not going to keep getting booster shots year after year just look at the participation rate with the flu shot every year. To my great sadness he was unable to come up with a good rebuttal.

For starters no one is telling you you have to buy and drive a motorcycle or you can’t work here. That is your own free choice to take that risk as it should be. Also you can decide to quit participating in the risk of driving motorcycles at anytime of you’re choosing. Once you get the vaccine there’s no going back it’s a decision you can’t reverse.

As hyper litigious this society is as you point out if the vaccine kills you the manufacturer as well as you’re employer if they forced you into it are immune from any litigation. I imagine Harley Davidson could be held responsible if a manufacturing defect caused you to crash your motorcycle and you were severely injured or were killed.

barndog, thanks very much for taking the time to post that.

I'll take posts like yours, from members of this forum who are medical professionals, over a whole month of CDC bulletins or Fauci ramblings.

Lastmanstanding, why would Israel, one of the nations with one of the best intelligence gathering apparatuses and some absolutely spectacular successes recently have over 80% of its population vaccinated if it truly believed the vaccine could potentially be more dangerous than natural herd immunity? Can Israel potentially afford to lose the majority of its population? If there were an actual true issue with covid vaccines they would be one of the countries I would expect to find it first rather than roll the dice and go along with everyone else.

quote:

Originally posted by stickman428:
Why would my government and pharmaceutical companies conspire to kill me...

I don't believe that is what's occurring. But both of these groups are the ultimate opportunists and they saw a huge opportunity to exploit this 'crisis' (Next....).

quote:

...or act so negligent in this hyper litigious society we live in that their drug would cause my death?

First, no one will ever succeed in suing government over this BS, and big pharma has been given complete immunity from liability by government for all these vaccines. If these vaccines turn out to be injurious to those vaccinated, there will be no ability to sue anyone. Ultimately this is all about $$$, and government can't and won't see past that to even consider these vaccines, which aren't really vaccines, and are totally new animals in the way they go about doing their thing in the human body, could be dangerous long term to those vaccinated. Their continual sowing of panic porn in the population provides them the control/power they lust for and need to keep the line at the vaccine window (and the $$$ in their bank accounts) flowing for years to come.

Ultimately, will the vaccines hurt or kill you? No one knows. No one. These vaccines flew through FDA approval in less than 1/20th the time virtually every other vaccine that came before had to go through, and with far less empirical data to back up their claims of efficacy and safety. Personally, I see this as a complete crap shoot on what's to come for the vaccinated.

quote:

Originally posted by stickman428:
If there were an actual true issue with covid vaccines they would be one of the countries I would expect to find it first rather than roll the dice and go along with everyone else.

And they 'may', but we need to stop thinking so short term. Just because somebody took the jab today, doesn't mean the virus won't result in immuno-system issues in the next few years, especially pumping booster shots into people every eight months or so. Many times with new drug, the side effects aren't immediately apparent. For my personal risk calculation, I'm healthy and not in a risk age group, so my probability of fully recovering from Covid (assuming I contract it) is in the high 97+ percentile, at which point I'll have robust natural immunity. Again, for me personally it just doesn't make sense to take the jab and any potential complications that come with it, given the numbers are in my favor to fully recover from it.

If something like a bio weapon or something pretty fucking close and nasty as hell leaked out of a lab either intentionally or via negligence and then because of incompetence it’s containment was botched I ask myself how would certain nations act. Would they attempt to fast track some sort of drug to combat the nasty thing? Sure, some politicians view every single human tragedy as a potential money-making scheme and there is a lot of public distrust in the government which is well earned. Which theory is more plausible? Who the hell knows.

Our Sheriff tells Queen Brown to get fucked:

https://kcby.com/news/local/do...owns-mandates-period

A message from Douglas County Sheriff John Hanlin:

"As you all know there has been a recent surge in Covid-19 illness and hospitalizations here locally, and across the State of Oregon. As a result, Governor Kate Brown announced her new statewide mask requirement which goes into effect Friday, August 27th, regardless of vaccination status. Due to these circumstances I have received numerous inquiries from the media and the public regarding enforcement of the Governor’s mask requirements.
The Douglas County Sheriff’s Office will NOT be enforcing Governor Brown’s mandates period. It is up to each of us as individuals to stay informed and make our own responsible decisions about our health. The citizens of Douglas County can choose to wear a mask or choose not to wear a mask. We can choose to get vaccinated or choose not to get vaccinated. And we can choose to stay home or we can choose to travel about freely. These are choices we as informed individuals shall make ourselves, NOT have made for us by the government.

As Sheriff, it is my responsibility to provide for the peace and safety of those in Douglas County. I take that duty seriously. I believe it is in the best interest of Douglas County, and all Oregon counties, to retain local control over decisions affecting the public health and safety and to protect the individual choices of those we represent.
Personally, I am tired of Governor Brown’s style of leadership that ignores the abilities of our local leadership, and her support of ideals that contradict the values most of us in rural Oregon hold dearly. The Governor’s good for one, good for all form of leadership is not working here.

Governor Brown has once again initiated what many consider to be an unconstitutional mandate by requiring our children and citizens to wear masks and by requiring COVID-19 vaccinations for state employees, healthcare workers and teaching staff. This mandate is potentially more reckless than doing nothing to stop the spread of COVID. I am aware of many state employees including police, fire & EMS service, healthcare, and education staff that intend to walk off the job if coerced into getting vaccinated.
As Sheriff of Douglas County, I took an oath to uphold the Constitution of the United States and to stand up for and defend the people of this county. I remind you, it is my duty to continue fighting for fundamental rights and personal freedoms, and to diligently support the residents of Douglas County.

My office is committed to our fundamental duty which is to serve mankind; to safeguard lives and property; to protect the innocent against deception, the weak against oppression or intimidation, and the peaceful against violence or disorder; and to respect the Constitutional rights of all men to liberty, equality and justice. With that we are committed to encouraging our community members in making well informed personal decisions to protect the health of our families and friends. Our health, safety and livelihoods are important needs for us all, but they cannot be accomplished through overreaching requirements and coercive government mandates, but rather through honest, accurate communication and compassion while respecting the different beliefs of a diverse community.

These are most challenging times. Please always use common sense and stay safe.

Respectfully,

John Hanlin, Sheriff"

quote:

The citizens of Douglas County can choose to wear a mask or choose not to wear a mask. We can choose to get vaccinated or choose not to get vaccinated. And we can choose to stay home or we can choose to travel about freely. These are choices we as informed individuals shall make ourselves, NOT have made for us by the government.

^^^ I really like this approach.

My goodness if the whole nation had taken this approach I wonder if I would be reading tonight about yet another one of my favorite events, one I look forward to all year long being canceled again for the second year straight. One of the highlights of my year gone again. Fuck! As the déjà vu sensational headlines that all but scream were all gonna die are beginning to pop back up. Fuck the way it’s going they might as well cancel all the fun things next year too and the year after that.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
barndog, thanks very much for taking the time to post that.

I'll take posts like yours, from members of this forum who are medical professionals, over a whole month of CDC bulletins or Fauci ramblings.

Thank you Para, I appreciate that. I have refrained from posting much in this thread, because I am a conservative like most everyone and respect people’s decisions to make an informed choice. Unfortunately, it is very difficult to be truly informed with real information on this politicized topic for anyone, medical professionals included. The CDC has made a clusterfuck of this entire pandemic.

quote:

Originally posted by barndg00:
Unfortunately, it is very difficult to be truly informed with real information on this politicized topic for anyone, medical professionals included. The CDC has made a clusterfuck of this entire pandemic.

I want to thank you for your post, and everything you've done during this aforementioned clusterfuck. The part I quoted, I especially agree with. All I know is I'm tired of being lied to and I'm at the point where I don't believe a thing the government or the media tell me, my trust in both is that shot-through.

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:

quote:

Originally posted by barndg00:
Unfortunately, it is very difficult to be truly informed with real information on this politicized topic for anyone, medical professionals included. The CDC has made a clusterfuck of this entire pandemic.

I want to thank you for your post, and everything you've done during this aforementioned clusterfuck. The part I quoted, I especially agree with. All I know is I'm tired of being lied to and I'm at the point where I don't believe a thing the government or the media tell me, my trust in both is that shot-through.

Your trust in the government and media being shot is totally appropriate, an I agree with this. That said, I and many other physicians are appalled that we are painted with the same brush. Talk with a physician you trust. Ask their opinion. As an ED physician, I understand that what I say to a person I just met not being 100% trusted, however, the primary care physicians are seeing the same distrust. I initially intended to wait a few months for vaccination, as it did seem to be rush. But I did research on mRNA technology, and how it has been being researched for over a decade. Vaccines for prior coronavirus infections (SARS1 and MERS) have been being looked at for a long time, however, those viruses petered out before they could get far enough to require immunization, and hence were shelved. The technology, however, has been being looked at for a long time. And, when you start to understand the mechanisms by which it works, it makes perfect sense. As does how it can rapidly be tailored to changing viruses in the future. We don’t know how long the protection from this type of vaccine will last, they simply haven’t been out there long enough to know. That said, I believe they are quite clearly effective in the near term. I will not tell anyone that we know what long term effects there may be, however, understanding how the technology works in the body, I cannot see how it would provoke a late term detrimental event for those vaccinated. The mRNA tells your body to make a specific protein (in this case, the spike protein of the virus that allows it to enter into the cell). Once that protein is made, your body recognizes that it is foreign, and responds, generating an immune response (those fevers, chills, nausea, muscle aches you may have heard of from vaccine “reactions”). In truth, I have been highly disappointed that I had no such effect from the vaccine, no outward reminder that anything had happened to me getting the vaccine beyond a mild soreness in my deltoid and slight fatigue. I WANTED a robust response from my body, because that would tell me the vaccine was doing its job! My sister had a couple days of significant aches, low grade fever, and headache, and is not looking forward to the reaction she may have from her booster, but in truth, I believe she may have gotten better immunity with the vaccine than I did specifically because her body generated such a response.

Please, talk with a physician you trust. We have received a lot of education not only in medicine, but also how to evaluate medical literature. Ask them if they are vaccinated and why. It is not private or personal information for us. It is being responsible for our own medical care, and I cannot imagine that they would be hesitant to share it. I saw my own PCP today for an annual physical, and we both commiserated on the lack of trust in our professional opinions from our patients, people who have willingly come to us for advice and care. It is one of the most disheartening things, to be asked for what you believe to be a respected opinion, only to find out that the trust placed in you only goes as far as when it matches your patient’s pre-existing opinion. If they are simply giving you an order, ask why, ask for their experience, and ask how they came to that conclusion. A competent, caring phyisician should be able to explain it to you readily. If you don’t understand their opinion, tell them so and ask for a better explanation. You may not change your mind, but you will certainly be better informed for it. If you don’t have a physician and have questions, contact me directly, my email is in my profile. I will do my best to respond in a timely fashion.

Here is where I am stuck.

Why must I wait until being hospitalized before I am treated?

What is detrimental with some of the early treatment options?

“It may not work” seems political.
If we allowed early treatment, maybe this virus would subside quicker.
If we allowed early treatment, maybe fewer would require hospitalization.