quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:
I don't see any mention there of "right" vs. "left."

Watch the Dinesh D'Souza video on the previous page.

quote:

Originally posted by DonDraper:
We defeated the Nazis in ww2. Many of them were hung from their necks after the war. I draw the line at Nazis Para, they have no place here. They deserve no rights.

You have become what you claim to despise.
Congratulations.

quote:

centralization of authority

That is the key differentiating characteristic for the left, either communists, socialists, or so called progressives. What was the practical difference between Stalin, Mao and Hitler? Not much.

Many words have been perverted over the years. To avoid confusion and being misled, it is critical to look at the nature of the "thing" you are considering.

quote:

Originally posted by mbinky:

quote:

Originally posted by DonDraper:
We defeated the Nazis in ww2. Many of them were hung from their necks after the war. I draw the line at Nazis Para, they have no place here. They deserve no rights.

You have become what you claim to despise.
Congratulations.

Exactly, and seemingly blind to that reality.

quote:

Originally posted by a1abdj:

But is that what we're dealing with?

Do you think that any of these hard left groups would recognize a single right of yours were they in a position to deny them?

I'm not taking Don's stance on Nazis or whatever, just looking at the big picture. I believe a monster is growing because we are allowing it to grow. The monster has rights. What if that monster grows to the point that it can decide what are and are not rights?

This is the crux of the problem. The beauty of our individual rights as enumerated in the constitution is that they exist with or without government. They are inherent in mankind. When some monster or another decides that they have the authority to give or take those rights away we have but one choice, allow or deny. I vote deny.

This will all end badly. Maybe not tomorrow but it will come to a head. The sad part of all this is that when it does, many who contributed will find out that there are no crayons and safe spaces in the zombie apocalypse.

quote:

Originally posted by airsoft guy:
Folks like Don Draper here are why we have a First Amendment in the first place.

It's all well and good to say things like "no free speech for Nazis!" but when one tries to actually implement it, that's when things get sticky. How "Nazi" does one have to be? I mean, it's not all goofy salutes, "Fuck the Jews!", and snazzy uniforms, there's actual politics to it, ideas, some of them are kinda good, and used elsewhere. What I'm saying is, what makes a Nazi a Nazi in the eyes of the law? Because, as already mentioned, we are a nation of laws, and if we decide that something is bad enough to ban, it needs to be codified. That bullshit of "I'll know it when I see it" doesn't does jive with our constitutional republic.

Simple answer, doesn't matter. See First Amendment.

I absolutely hate Nazi's and KKK. Until they've committed a crime or conspired to commit one, then let the douchbags have their little marches. They just make themselves look like giant fools.

On the other hand. The counter protestors have actually committed crimes that go overlooked and unpunished. Assault and battery, use of pepper spray, suppressing free speech, intimidation, etc. Who comes to protest with weapons? That is not a protest, it's a insurgency.

And I am asking everyone- just in general- let's take it easy on each other right now. There's enough tension as it is. Let's just be cool.

Chellim, the "Nolan" chart may help explain the philosophical differences more easily. Part of what always bogs down a discussion of conservative v liberal is taking what is a 2 dimensional spectrum and fitting it on one axis. (not Nazi Axis, Don).



There are statist conservatives, statist liberals, libertarian conservatives and libertarian liberals, as well as centrists.

Just like the concept of "what is a conservative" or "what is a liberal" is a flawed discussion without considering the other axis so is "what is a libertarian conservative" and "what is a libertarian liberal".

Don is falling where many Republicans are, as statist conservatives. The aspect of conservativism that is on the upswing with the 3% and other entities are conservative libertarians. No one party can effectively cross any of these quadrants. That's why the Republicans have struggled eternally. It's what is tearing the Democrat party apart. It's equally why the Libertarian party hasn't ever gotten its act together. Even a purely statist party, like the Soviet communists still had divisions because it encompassed a spectrum of liberal and conservatives.

Unless and until this chart is understood and used to frame national discussions confusion will continue to disrupt effective communication.

Edit: Here's another illustration of it. You can see that both Communists and Fascists are statists, which is why libertarian conservatives cannot imagine why liberals paint them as fascists, which is as far from their mindset as possible.



P.S. I have no idea what "evolve beyond" means in the middle of this graphic, unless they are saying move beyond just left-right.

quote:

You can see that both Communists and Fascists are statists, which is why libertarian conservatives cannot imagine why liberals paint them as fascists, which is as far from their mindset as possible.

Yes, and both Communists and Fascists are on the Left... because they are statists.

On the far left is complete and total government, everything in the state, nothing outside the state.... and it follows that on the the far right would be NO government, or anarchy.

Limited government, or a Constitutional republic, is not on the far left or on the far right. A true republic is one where the government is limited by law, largely leaving the people alone and free.

I would like to suggest that everyone who wants to understand what happened in Charlotte, and what's coming, watch this video of Dinesh D'Souza, especially the first 15 minutes or so of his analysis of Saul Alinsky. Don't assume you know Alinsky. D'Souza has some real insights.

https://www.c-span.org/video/?.../debate-saul-alinsky

Alinsky was a master at switching the narrative. If you can't win a fight that is before you, create a new fight that you can win. Turn attention elsewhere, away from where you can't win, to where you can win. Big. Alinsky was incredibly clever.

Having had time to think over what happened in Charlotte, it seems clear to me that it was a leftist setup from beginning to end, pure Alinsky.

The leader of the rally might well have been part of the setup. There are reports that he was an Obama supporter and activist. I have only seen this information on websites I don't know and do not automatically trust. But I think the truth of it will emerge soon.

In any case, he was either complicit or foolish. He allowed Nazis and KKK to join in his rally. If they simply showed up without invitation, they should have been told in no uncertain terms to leave-- have their own rally somewhere else. Nazis not welcome here.

Most of the marchers were white men fed up with what has been happening in this country to vilify whites, especially white men, for the past decade. In this specific case, removing the statue of a man honored and admired by Southerners and others.

But anyone would know, or should know, that the narrative would immediately become "white supremacists run amok!" even had there been only two Nazis in the hundreds of marchers.

The police were issued stand down orders, which insured violence, even-- as it turned out-- deadly violence. All of which would be connected with President Donald Trump, as indeed was the case.

The president was the target of this setup. He was targeted this way because-- well, he is in the White House. He is moving his agenda forward. THAT is the fight they can't win. So they are switching the battle to "Americans who hate bigotry are fighting Nazis and KKK who represent Trump."

Millions of Americans are on to this kind of scam. But, sadly, most Americans are still lofos. They watch CNN and Fox and shake their heads. Poor girl killed by a Nazi fanatic! Right here in America! That damn Donald Trump!

We don't need to fight.

WE WON!

This fight, which no doubt will escalate, maybe beyond what we now even imagine, is intended to become the dominant narrative of our times. Eclipsing President Trump's agenda, and his success.

I say again: It is pure Alinsky.

As soon as we gather for a rally-- the next in a few weeks in Richmond-- we fall for a setup. Antifa will be there. BLM will be there. KKK and Nazis will be there. Violence will be there. And it will be more of what we just saw.

This kind of thing is likely, at some point, to devolve into a firefight.

Saul will be smiling in Hell.

Right you are.

quote:

We don't need to fight.
This fight, which no doubt will escalate, maybe beyond what we now even imagine, is intended to become the dominant narrative of our times.
I say again: It is pure Alinsky.

Right you are. We should reject the violence. Neither side of this fight represents Constitutional, limited government.

Ben Shapiro weighs in:

The Left Focuses On Tearing Down Statues When They Should Be Condemning Violence
Ben Shapiro

In the aftermath of Charlottesville, the Left has returned to one of its favorite pastimes: tearing down statues and defacing public property. Instead of making a grown-up argument that Confederate war monuments shouldn’t be funded by taxpayer dollars, Leftists have simply determined that it’s fine to tear down statues they don’t like, without even engaging in a serious historical or political debate.

Now, there are strong arguments on both sides of the aisle regarding the removal of Confederate war monuments.
In favor: the Confederacy lost, as it should have; the people who fought for the Confederacy fought to uphold the evil institution of slavery, and descendants of slaves shouldn’t have to foot the bill for the upkeep of monuments to their would-be oppressors. That's a pretty damn good argument.
Opposed: those who fought for the Confederacy weren’t only fighting over slavery – about one-third of white families under the Confederacy owned slaves – but over their belief that their states should be free of federal encroachment; removing historic memorials generally is a bad idea because it prevents us from discussing our history, both good and ill. These are arguments that should be had at the public level, and voting should solve them.

My own position is that the Confederate flag shouldn’t fly over public grounds but is perfectly appropriate with regard to Confederate war memorials, that Confederate war memorials have little to do with the perpetuation of racism today, and that the best solution might be to privatize those memorials and place them in museums in any case.

But the Left isn’t interested in these arguments. There’s a broader, two-pronged agenda at work here. The first prong: label a huge number of common symbols racist. There’s a movement afoot to tear down statues of Thomas Jefferson, to stop students from wearing the American flag to school on Cinco De Mayo, to end the playing of the National Anthem at football games. The Confederate flag and Confederate war memorials are only the first step toward that goal. It’s rather obvious that the Left has no such interest in tearing down statues of Robert Byrd in the US Capitol or Vladimir Lenin in Seattle.

The second prong: tear down the symbols without due process of law. That’s what we’re seeing in Durham. It’s what we’ve seen in the vandalism directed against statues elsewhere. That’s part of the broader Leftist legitimization of lawbreaking and violence; that legitimization has led to the growth of movements like Antifa, which spreads violence in its wake.

Racism is a problem, and must be fought. But the bigger problem is that racism can’t be fought while we’re clubbing each other over the head and destroying each other’s property. In fact, the leading growth-point for the alt-right is Leftist violence and overreach. If the Left truly wishes to defeat racism, they need to start by ending both their violence and their pathetic attempts to label anyone who disagrees with their policy prescriptions racist. Breaking Leftist toes on metal statues of long-dead Confederate soldiers isn’t solid strategy, and it isn’t good for the country.

http://www.dailywire.com/news/...y-should-ben-shapiro

Not all authoritarians / statists are leftist. Please look at the chart again, which is represented in the diamond for an X and a Y axis.

X axis is liberal v conservative
Y axis is statist/authoritarian v. libertarian.

quote:

Please look at the chart again, which is represented in the diamond for an X and a Y axis.

I have looked at the chart. I reject the chart.
Where is Constitutionalism (limited government, by law) on the chart?

This chart does have authoritarian (complete or total government: tyranny) opposite of libertarian (no government, anarchy) which I do find somewhat useful....

Trump hit this head-on in a press conference just now-he called out both sides

More of liberal "logic." Funny, I see no mention of all the roads and structures named after Sen Robert Byrd, D-WV.

https://www.washingtonpost.com...m_term=.5de4ca2a10e6

Rebel base names, statues disgrace U.S. military facilities and Congress

By Joe Davidson | Columnist August 15 at 4:18

With all the attention on the white nationalist terrorist attack in Charlottesville, let’s not forget Uncle Sam’s curious comforting of treasonous confederates.

While places like Maryland, New Orleans and Charlottesville have taken action against proslavery and Confederate statues, 10 U.S. military bases continue to honor the rebels by carrying names of their leaders.

Consider the irony — American military facilities are named after Confederate generals who waged war on the United States government and killed its troops. How crazy is that?

All 10 bases are located in the former Confederacy, according to a Southern Poverty Law Center list. They are:

Firt Rucker (Gen. Edmund Rucker), Ala.
Fort Benning (Brig. Gen. Henry L. Benning), Ga.
Fort Gordon (Maj. Gen. John Brown Gordon), Ga.
Camp Beauregard (Gen. P.G.T. Beauregard), La.
Fort Polk (Gen. Leonidas Polk), La.
Fort Bragg (Gen. Braxton Bragg), N.C.
Fort Hood (Gen. John Bell Hood), Tex.
Fort A.P. Hill (Gen. A.P. Hill), Va.
Fort Lee (Gen. Robert E. Lee), Va.
Fort Pickett (Gen. George Pickett), Va.

Additional comfort comes in the form of state flags that include Confederate symbols and decorate congressional hallways.

More shameful are the statues of confederates that disgrace the Capitol complex. A story by colleague Mike DeBonis, aptly headlined “A field guide to the racists commemorated inside the U.S. Capitol,” lists these white supremacists who are venerated by Congress:

Jefferson Davis of Mississippi, Confederate president and former U.S. senator and representative
Alexander Hamilton Stephens of Georgia, Confederate vice president
John C. Calhoun of South Carolina, proslavery senator
Wade Hampton III of South Carolina, Confederate general
Charles Brantley Aycock, a North Carolina governor who worked to disenfranchise African Americans and bragged that “we have solved the negro (sic) problem. … We have taken him out of politics and have thereby secured good government …”

Confederate military officers honored with statues on the Capitol grounds are:

Robert E. Lee of Virginia
James Zachariah George of Mississippi
Edmund Kirby Smith of Florida
Joseph Wheeler of Alabama.

“We will never solve America’s race problem if we continue to honor traitors who fought against the United States in order to keep African Americans in chains,” said Congressional Black Caucus Chairman Cedric L. Richmond (D-La.) “By the way, thank god, they lost.”

No help in solving the “race problem” comes from President Trump, who continues, appallingly, to comfort white nationalists by leveling “blame on both sides” for the Charlottesville violence.

The Confederate tributes — base names, statues and flag representations — revere those who supported the enslavement of African Americans. The display of Confederate symbols today is an affirmation of white supremacy and black oppression. But that is not the only reason all Americans should be outraged.

Even Confederate flag waving racists who consider themselves patriotic should consider the treason the symbols represent.

Many of these memorials honor those who, although not tried as traitors, certainly fit this Constitutional definition: “Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort.”

Removing the military base names and the statues is not erasing history. In fact, more people need to know the true history of the Confederacy, so they won’t get stuck in the “that’s my heritage” trap. How can any self-described patriot glorify those who killed American troops?

Patriotic organizations of veterans’, whose professional ancestors were killed by Confederates, have been slow to condemn the rebel symbols. But the largest group, the American Legion, now has done so.

In reaction to the attack in Charlottesville, where Nazi sympathizer James Alex Fields Jr. allegedly rammed his Dodge Challenger into a crowd, killing Heather Heyer, the American Legion issued this condemnation: “Americans fought fascism and crushed the Nazis in World War II, and anyone who waves a Nazi flag on our soil is, by very definition, anti-American. The disgusting displays of hatred and bigotry on display in Charlottesville dishonor all veterans who fought and died to stamp out fascism. We have one flag: the American flag. We are one people: the American people.”

Two Virginia State Police officers, H. Jay Cullen and Berke Bates, who had monitored the demonstrations related to the planned removal of a Lee statue also died when their helicopter crashed.

The Legion’s statement did not mention the Confederate flag, which also was displayed by those protesting the statue’s removal. So, I asked if the Legion considers those displaying the Confederate flag to be “by very definition, anti-American.”

It took some prodding, but the Legion answered “yes.” That was the first time the Legion has condemned the flag of treason. Other major veterans’ groups have remained silent. The Legion had nothing to say about changing the base names.

Neither did a Pentagon spokesman, who offered “at this time, there is no discussion on this topic.”

There needs to be, and Congress is the ideal place. But no one is leading the charge on this point.

Rep. Jared Huffman (D-Calif.) did lead an effort to ban the flying of Confederate banners on Department of Veterans Affairs and National Park Service cemetery flagpoles. His legislation did not pass, but VA decided not to allow Confederate flags on permanently fixed flagpoles. Last month, the Black Caucus filed a Supreme Court brief in support of a Mississippi resident’s complaint that incorporating a Confederate emblem in the state flag denies him “equal treatment and dignity under the law.”

That emblem also denies the dignity of the United States. Honoring the traitors and racists of the Confederacy particularly by the U.S. government, should be unthinkable.

Was watching Jordan Peterson's Q&A video yesterday and thought this was interesting:



https://youtu.be/OBRGL35NxNY


Link to full video:
https://youtu.be/MeNxc6MqXuM

^^^ "Don't play their game."

It's like being led right into an ambush.

A really dangerous level of stupidity here.

Toy Company Fires Employee For Condemning Antifa


http://dailycaller.com/2017/08...r-condemning-antifa/

Look how far down the trail of tyranny we've come. Now we are accepting principles that will one day collapse individual liberty altogether. What a catastrophe.

quote:

Originally posted by mutedblade:


You've got some explaining to do Mr. Draper. Why do you own a Volkswagen? Are you a Nazi?

Adolf Hitler and Volkswagen

That's all you can come up with? Run out of logical adult things to say did we? You might fall into that special category I mentioned before. I'd almost guarantee it.


Keeping it cool here as requested though, just thought it wouldn't be so dramatic to express my fucking disdain for Nazis. I still won't check for a permit to walk out on the street when they show up in my town. Good luck with all that, have a glorious day all.