quote:

Originally posted by Lord Vaalic:
And I want an answer from you, you who knows God and what he wants and how he thinks....

Why did the baby we were adopting last year die from disease? Why? What sin did that baby commit in his 4 months on earth? What sin did my unborn child commit when my wife had a miscarriage?

You can't have it both ways... You cant. Either your God is responsible for what happens or he isn't. Which is it?

I'm not special, I have many things in my life that are good and wonderful, and have had tragedy as well. That makes me no different than anyone. We all have sadness and joy. Life's a bitch.

My son can piss me off like crazy. So I guess that's the same as murdering him?

Thats so fucking stupid that I don't have any more words.

I'm coming back to this thread because you demanded an answer, and given the loss of a child, I think you deserve one to the best of my ability.

First, I am very sorry for your loss. I can't imagine the pain, and hope I never experience it. I'm sorry you have.

Second, it is not your child's fault. He did nothing and his mother did nothing that caused this.

I'll offer an explanation from the perspective of a Christian, which I am. I accept that it may not sound rational to a non-Christian, but please bear with me.

If one is a Christian, then he or she believes that sickness and death entered the world because of the falleness of man. In the beginning, man was made perfect and placed in a perfect home. He was supposed to live forever and be a friend and companion of God. He didn't know sin and his only wish was to be in the presence of God. But through his disobedience, the consequences of sin entered the world. The bible speaks to God's cursing mankind as a result of his disobedience. That's the original sin that you've perhaps heard of. As a result, the consequence of that original sin is innate in all of us. We die.

Does this mean your child or his mother did something sinful that caused his death? In short, no. In fact, not at all.

I've written at length about how one is saved. I haven't written nearly as much about how one is condemned.

If you are so inclined, read Revelation 20:12.

"And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne. And there were open books, and one of them was the book of life. And the dead were judged according to their deeds, as recorded in the books."

Here it is. While men are saved by the atoning death of Christ and their faith in him and him alone, man is condemned by his deeds. You see, there is a difference between dying and being condemned. All men die. Not all men are condemned. All men die as a result of original sin. Not all men commit deeds by which they are condemned. Death isn't a punishment specific to a person, condemnation is. Death is a condition of man. Condemnation is a punishment.

Your child died because of a medical reason that is manifest in the world due to man's original sin. But he is not condemned because he has committed no deed by which he could be condemned.

Accordingly, your child is most assuredly in the presence of God. And in that presence he will live forever. In a most real sense. Your child is a living soul who had a body that died. He is still a living soul. That which made him who he was, that thing in him that corresponded to God, that made it possible for him to live forever, his soul, is still alive and well and with his maker where he will live in everlasting bliss.

If you read the Gospels, Jesus himself physically blessed only one group of people. Children.

Jesus said, "Suffer the little children to come unto me, for to such belongs the kingdom of God" (Matt. 19:14)

"And they were bringing children to Him so that He might touch them; ... And He took them in His arms and began blessing them, laying His hands on them." (Mark 10:14 & 16)

All people die because of the consequence of sin that came into the world. But no little child dies because he committed a sin.

I hope that help explain the Christian's perspective.

quote:

Originally posted by crue-dell:
With Christianity comprising roughly 3/10 of the Earth's religion, I have a hard time believing the other 70% are screwed.

Funny that everyone out there believes they picked the "correct" religion / god(s) and such.

Can we send Rosie O'Donnel, Whoopie Goldberg, George Clooney and all the other Hollywood assholes, along with the Clinton's and the Obama's there? Please!
Oh, and don't forget Maxine Waters and Nancy Pelosi

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:

quote:

Originally posted by crue-dell:
With Christianity comprising roughly 3/10 of the Earth's religion, I have a hard time believing the other 70% are screwed.

Funny that everyone out there believes they picked the "correct" religion / god(s) and such.

Rhino I agree so much with you. It is what I strut most with when it comes to being “true” to the faith I was raised in.

quote:

Originally posted by Oat_Action_Man:

quote:

Originally posted by Micropterus:


I've emphatically stated the opposite. The true Christian doesn't place himself above anyone in terms of worth, value or morality.

I don't want to be that guy who derails this even farther, but by what criteria can one claim to be a "true Christian"? What authority allows one to say they are the "true" Christian, which, by extension, means that others are "false" Christians?

Based on what you stated above, clearly the Nicaean Creed must be important to defining a "true" Christian.

But what about Arian? I'm pretty sure he thought he was the true Christian at the Council of Nicaea and had the backing of scripture. Indeed, that most important Christological question of homoousios vs. homoiousios had battles fought over it before the Council of Nicaea. Why did it somehow get "settled" then?

So your version is the "true" version because some guys got together and voted on it and had more votes than some other guys who thought the other way?

If we need to go back to Nicaea then, doesn't that mean anyone who isn't Roman Catholic is technically a "false" Christian, because the Roman Catholic church was the de facto creation of the Council of Nicaea. So what about the East-West Schism or the Reformation? Are all those others "false" Christians?

I'm sure if we went back to Nicaea then in 325 AD you'd see that those guys who decided on "true Christianity" probably don't fit your definition of a "true Christian". But they were 1700 years closer to the actual life of Christ and had access to sources you don't, so how can you know better than them?

Who gets to decide who is the "real" one and who is the "fake" one?

But does it make one iota of difference?



(Sorry, couldn’t help myself! #1646Westminster)

(Oh and his name was Arius)

So after reading this thread I would say we are about 94.75% in agreement here that this guy was a moron.

I believe in a higher being.

I believe in people being saved.

I also believe if I jump into a pool full of piranhas, my ass is going to get eaten.

quote:

Originally posted by Dusty78:
So after reading this thread I would say we are about 94.75% in agreement here that this guy was a moron.

I literally just spit beer out of nose when I read this!!

quote:

Originally posted by ulsterman:...
I also believe if I jump into a pool full of piranhas, my ass is going to get eaten.

I believe they are gonna eat more than that. Just in case you start getting that whim to swim...

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
Oooo, this is just getting good. Pass the beer and popcorn, please.

Threads about religion, legalization of dope, and no knock warrants never fail to deliver.

quote:

Originally posted by 45_Auto:
Can we send Rosie O'Donnel, Whoopie Goldberg, George Clooney and all the other Hollywood assholes, along with the Clinton's and the Obama's there? Please!
Oh, and don't forget Maxine Waters and Nancy Pelosi

And what, exactly have the indigenous folks of North Sentinel Island done to you that you would wish that level of misery on them? For shit’s sake, man, it ain’t like they’ve got it easy or anything!

Some topics are worth discussing in depth.

Interesting thread.

I think there's a Far Side cartoon that fits the subject of this discussion?

V.

quote:

Originally posted by White Phosphorus:
Interesting thread.

I think there's a Far Side cartoon that fits the subject of this discussion?

V.

Not Far Side, but this one spells it out.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
Oooo, this is just getting good. Pass the beer and popcorn, please.

Threads about religion, legalization of dope, and no knock warrants never fail to deliver.

Speaking of no-knock warrants. I would like to see that wanted poster at the post office; a guy with his dick out holding a spear and that get off my lawn look on his face.



Sentinel Island: Christian group invites ridicule with demand of murder charges against Sentinelese | India News - Times of India

Chidanand Rajghatta | TNN | Updated: Nov 24, 2018, 17:44 IST

TNN
In this handout photo provided by the Indian Coast Guard and Survival International, a man with the Sentinelese tribe aims his bow and arrow at an Indian Coast Guard helicopter as it flies over North Sentinel Island in the Andaman Islands, in the wake of the 2004 Indian Ocean tsunami. (AFP photo)
WASHINGTON: A US fundamentalist Christian group has sought murder charges against "those responsible" for the

death of American adventurer and provocateur John Allen Chau
, amid growing doubts about his evangelical credentials and ridicule over his conversion efforts directed at an ancient tribe that predates organised religion.

While details of 27-year old’s misadventures are trickling out by the hour, the organisation

International Christian Concern
has expressed concern and sought action on the matter. This despite Chau having gone to the

forbidden island
in the Andaman’s, in violation of the law, to proselytise without registering as a missionary, also in violation of laws.

"Our thoughts and prayers go out to both John’s family and friends. A full investigation must be launched in this this murder and those responsible must be brought to justice," the organisation told a website LAD

Bible
, which itself did not support his mission.

"The indigenous people of North Sentinel are protected by law and it is illegal to go over to the island -- not that you'd want to, given that they have a reputation for killing anyone who tries," it noted, adding, "It is also important that the Sentinelese are left alone because they could be susceptible to diseases."

But groups such as the International Christian Concern, which has previously complained about the treatment of Christians in India, notably with a report last week on the situation in

Jharkhand
, suggest the Sentinelese tribesmen who allegedly killed Chau should be charged with murder. The demand has been greeted derisively on social media, with taunts that the group’s representatives should perhaps go to island to personally serve summons.

The Trump administration and US lawmakers have so far refrained from commenting on the matter, with the long Thanksgiving weekend giving everyone a respite from the news cycle. But the young adventurer’s family sought to move past the incident that claimed their son’s life.

"Words cannot express the sadness we have experienced about this report," his family said in a statement posted on his Instagram account. "He loved God, life, helping those in need, and had nothing but love for the Sentinelese people."

"We forgive those reportedly responsible for his death. We also ask for the release of those friends he had in the

Andaman Islands
. He ventured out on his own free will and his local contacts need not be persecuted for his own actions,'' they added.

Several US commentators have also pointed out the foolhardiness of Chau’s mission in venturing to an isolated island whose inhabitants are said to have an extant existence of over 30,000 years, and who have chosen not to engage with rest of the world, resulting in even the government of India leaving them alone. Even Indian military personnel and anthropologists seeking to study them have backed down in the face of their desire to remain in isolation.

One American commentator noted that the case has angered conservation groups who said such visits endangered the tribe's safety while remarking, "What better day than Thanksgiving to threaten the lives of indigenous people. This is how genocides start."

Download the Times of India News App for Latest India News.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=...ust=1543330409300953

quote:

Originally posted by Lord Vaalic:
And I want an answer from you, you who knows God and what he wants and how he thinks....

Nobody knows how He thinks. Everything any of us, or any human ever, says is just our very limited, almost pathetic, attempt to make sense of it all. But still, there is some sense to be noted. Noting the sense can provide some sense of purpose, and therefore some comfort.

quote:

Why did the baby we were adopting last year die from disease? Why? What sin did that baby commit in his 4 months on earth? What sin did my unborn child commit when my wife had a miscarriage?

Well, to be perfectly dispassionate about it, we would have to recognize that EVERYONE dies, and death is almost always accompanied by some suffering. EVERYONE suffers and has moments of despair and anguish. This is the reality of the human condition. This is the reality we all face. You are most familiar with the details of the hardships of your family, but everyone has them. You just may not be aware of them. So the proper question is not "Why did it happen?", but "Why would you assume or expect you were going to be different than every other human being that has ever lived?"

The death of an infant is certainly a horrible hardship for you and your wife, but you should recognizes that the suffering-in-grief you feel is tinged by your own selfishness. The suffering of the infant is over. It is your own suffering you are complaining about. Within the context of anyone who believes in God, or anything like God, or any rational condition of progressing into an afterlife, then certainly a sinless infant has progressed to a "higher" and "better" existence. Some might call it Heaven".

quote:

You can't have it both ways... You cant. Either your God is responsible for what happens or he isn't. Which is it?

Actually, we can have it both ways. God is responsible for "what happens", but we are responsible for how we react to it. Some people accept the unquestionable reality of "What happens" while putting into the context of a much bigger picture. Others may have some naive assumption that they are going to be special, and so it is a shock to their egos.
The "image" or "likeness" of God in which we were made was the essence of being and a conscious entity with free will, to either attempt to understand "the sense", or become lusty and angry.

quote:

I'm not special, I have many things in my life that are good and wonderful, and have had tragedy as well. That makes me no different than anyone. We all have sadness and joy. Life's a bitch.

Well, we agree there!

quote:

My son can piss me off like crazy. So I guess that's the same as murdering him?
Thats so fucking stupid that I don't have any more words.

Yeah; definitely not "the same".
Keep in mind that I am not a Christian, I think the "sense" written in the Bible is valid, but it is still written down by humans and interpreted by humans. When you are think about concepts like "God", you have to be thinking "really, really Big"... and I mean humungous!!

On John Chau in particular: I don't know what was going through his mind, but I believe in the validity of intentions. If he really was intending to preach Christianity to the Natives in the spirit of love, then that intention certainly has had some worldwide effect: he is world-famous and we are discussing him here!
But he also does appear to be a moron.
But we are all morons on some level and almost all of us are going to die of something stupid and apparently trivial. So let him who is without moronity cast the first javelin.

Indian officials cautious as they attempt to recover American's body from remote island

Indian officials have repeatedly traveled near the remote island where an American missionary was killed by an uncontacted tribe -- but authorities still don't know how they're going to actually get on the land to recover his body.

John Allen Chau, 26, of Vancouver, Wash., was killed while trying to make contact with North Sentinel Island's Sentinelese tribe, which has been known to attack outsiders with bows and arrows.

“They are a treasure,” director-general of police on the Andaman and Nicobar island groups Dependera Pathak said of the Sentinelese people. “We cannot go and force our way in. We don't want to harm them.”

Visitation to North Sentinel Island is heavily restricted by the Indian government and contact with the Sentinelese tribe who lives there is illegal, in order to protect their indigenous way of life and prevent the spread of diseases.

Scholars believe the Sentinelese are descendants of Africans who migrated to the region about 50,000 years ago. The tribe survives on the small, forested island by hunting, fishing and gathering plants.

Upon seeing Chau, the tribesmen reacted angrily, the American wrote. He attempted to speak their language and sing worship songs, however, no one has been able to successfully speak the language of the Sentinelese people. Chau was illegally ferried by to the island by fishermen before taking a kayak alone to shore, according to the Washington Post.


In an email to Chau's mother, Lynda Adams-Chau, a fellow missionary wrote the fishermen saw the tribe burying the adventurer on the beach the next day. Several of the fishermen involved in helping Chau travel to the island, as well as a friend who helped organize the boat trip, have been arrested.

On Friday, a boat carrying police and other officials approached the island watching the tribe through binoculars. On Saturday, the tribesmen were armed with spears and bows and arrows, but they didn’t attempt to engage officials, Pathak said.

Authorities said they haven’t given up hope on recovering Chau’s body, but are moving gingerly and taking cues from what happened when two fishermen drifted onto the island in 2006. The Sentinelese killed the fishermen, buried them on the beach but then dug up their corpses and propped them upright. Those bodies were never recovered.

“We are looking carefully at what happened then, and what [the Sentinelese] did,” Pathak said. “We are consulting anthropologists to see what kind of friendly gesture we can make.”

Fox News’ Louis Casiano and the Associated Press contributed to this report.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/...y-from-remote-island

quote:

“We are consulting anthropologists to see what kind of friendly gesture we can make.”

Well, things go better with Coke...

quote:

Authorities said they haven’t given up hope on recovering Chau’s body, but are moving gingerly and taking cues from what happened when two fishermen drifted onto the island in 2006. The Sentinelese killed the fishermen, buried them on the beach but then dug up their corpses and propped them upright. Those bodies were never recovered.

Hmmm... propped the bodies up right. I'm no anthropologist but that sounds like a warning.

quote:

Originally posted by gw3971:

quote:

Authorities said they haven’t given up hope on recovering Chau’s body, but are moving gingerly and taking cues from what happened when two fishermen drifted onto the island in 2006. The Sentinelese killed the fishermen, buried them on the beach but then dug up their corpses and propped them upright. Those bodies were never recovered.

Hmmm... propped the bodies up right. I'm no anthropologist but that sounds like a warning.

Seems like a pretty clear message to me. Granted crude by modern standards but still quite effective.