quote:

Originally posted by Lord Vaalic:
paradigms and synergies and corporate culture and asset alignment....

OK, well that actually is evil. Make it Power Point and you may actually bump Brutus or Judas in the lowest pit.

quote:

Originally posted by Lord Vaalic:
And I want an answer from you, you who knows God and what he wants and how he thinks....

Why did the baby we were adopting last year die from disease? Why? What sin did that baby commit in his 4 months on earth? What sin did my unborn child commit when my wife had a miscarriage?

You can't have it both ways... You cant. Either your God is responsible for what happens or he isn't. Which is it?

I'm not special, I have many things in my life that are good and wonderful, and have had tragedy as well. That makes me no different than anyone. We all have sadness and joy. Life's a bitch.

My son can piss me off like crazy. So I guess that's the same as murdering him?

Thats so fucking stupid that I don't have any more words.

While I don’t like is stance on guns he’s spot on about this one

quote:

Originally posted by Dusty78:
I find it much more illogical to believe in things with zero proof....laughable actually.

There's plenty of proof. You just have to find it.

For me, raised Catholic but an agnostic for most of my life, it took a trip to Israel. I left thinking, "there is no way anyone could visit here and not believe".

To each his own I guess.

So much wrong in here. There's a book that explains this whole thing, but its a long read and takes some real soul searching and higher power assistance to understand.

Here's the skinny:

Old Testament(God the judge): You messed up. You didn't listen. You couldn't follow 1 rule. Now your on your own and want more rules. Couldn't follow 1 and want rules, okay here's 10. Still can't follow rules. Ya'll are hard headed. Did ya'll not read I made you from dirt? Dirt that is dirty, as in not clean? I'm going to send you a savior, cuz at this point ya'll are hopeless.

New Testament(God the father): I love you. No I said I love you, and by grace I'm going to save you. I mean by grace I'm going to let you murder me, even though I did nothing wrong. I mean I'm dying for you, and if you can accept that I'd die for you, would you accept that maybe I could forgive you for anything. And just maybe you could start loving yourselves and one another, and maybe once you learn to love you could love me? The one that has loved you from the start.. And maybe you could heal people, with my help, yeah like pray for them. And maybe that little bit of faith, if you used it, kind of like working out your muscles, might grow to where you could do some incredible stuff, like cure cancer, and stop terrible storms and stuff. I'm your father, I love you, and I want to help but I'm not going to pry. I'll be here when your ready. Waiting by this phone. Seems to only ring on Sunday.

^^^ You know what an asshole I am better than most.

Lol... I ain't even dialing on Sunday.

quote:

Originally posted by gearhounds:

quote:

Pride was one of the classical deadly sins, and that’s what either action seems to me: I can do something no one else can, so look at how wonderful I am

This is exactly the point I made a page or two back. He made several attempts despite it being made clear at multiple times that he WAS NOT WANTED, nor was HIS GOD. This was not a case of a humble approach to the savages that got him killed. It was his stubborn, ignorant PRIDE alone. The fishermen are not to blame, god isn’t to blame, the natives (who could arguably be said to have exhausted all other options) are not to blame. Hubris got this man killed, plain and simple.

WINNER, WINNER, CHICKEN DINNER!!!


Hubris, hutzpha, balls.... Call it what you want, it all comes down to the same.

I'll give Chau this, he had a big set of brass ones. Not a lot in the "brains" department, but balls, oh yeah. To actually believe that HIS God was the ONLY God, and that he alone was the one that was going to convert these people to his way of thought. Just that amount of belief alone is something you have to give the man credit for.


As far as the people on the island; just leave them alone! Not hard to figure out. They made that message loud and clear multiple times. Those calling for action against them, why? What did they do? They're not out attacking anyone. They're not out looking for trouble. They have pretty much the ultimate "Castle Doctrine / Stand your Ground" stuff out there. That "Do not disturb" sign has been hung outside their door for a long time now. The problem is, some asshole still decides to knock.

"But that's MURDER!"
No, for them that's just a reiteration of the "Do not disturb" sign.

That's their concept of laws.
You honestly think that they know what "government" is? The concept of a "Country"? Let's hear the cries of "Oh, there not Civilized!" The hell they ain't! whatever they have been doing, they've been doing it for the past 3000 years (according to the article), and it's been working just the way that they want it, without any outside interference. They may not know what a motor, electricity, government, the internet (including the Sig Forum), firearms, advanced medical treatment... are. But is that what makes a "civilization"? Those people have been doing just fine all on their own out there.

The arrogance of some to think that "we" can make them better by showing them a different God, religion, Coffee maker, cellphone, taxes, pizza... astounds me. IF they have a God, they are doing pretty damn good with "it" and "it" is working out for them. Just leave them the hell alone.

And another point that needs to be brought up:
I see a bunch of people throughout the years trying to go out there and enforce their will upon the population of that island.
I haven't heard one story of one of THEM trying to enforce their will upon anyone else.
If it was really that bad on that island, don't you think that they'd be trying to get the hell out of Dodge?

quote:

They may not know what a motor, electricity, government, the internet (including the Sig Forum),

Whoa whoa whoa!! No Sigforum? They are savages who must be converted!

quote:

Originally posted by Dusty78:

quote:

Originally posted by TheNewbie:
Have to love Internet religious discussions.


To not believe there is a God/creator is rather odd. It's not my goal to be mean and rude, but atheism is so illogical it's laughable. Except it's not laughable because it destroys societies. I can understand not knowing which religion to buy into, or even being non religious, but atheist? That is out there.



Religious people can be annoying as well, and the over the top emotional based religion makes me want to puke. If it works for someone I guess that's great, but it often makes good religion look silly. We have to be logical in our arguments.


I would recommend Dennis Prager's book "The Rational Bible" to all. I especially recommend it to atheists who want to challenge themselves.

I find it much more illogical to believe in things with zero proof....laughable actually.

You should check out "The Rational Bible" by Dennis Prager. If you want to challenge your lack of belief.

quote:

Originally posted by lbj:
Christianity is so easily misunderstood.
What might make sense logically in this world may be the polar opposite spiritually.

That's hard to fathom, even for me at one time.

When one realizes oneself is in this world but not of this world, you can start to view Christianity as it's meant to be.

I am still far off the mark, but closer than I used to be.
Just being a good person and doing good deeds does not get one to Heaven.
Sounds illogical right? That's because we view it from being worldly, not spiritually.

I think you nailed it LBJ.

Most of us, or all of us, are well in tune with (not necessarily in control of) our physical and worldly being but have little to zero understanding of our spiritual being, including its existence within us. I think God cares more about our spiritual being than our physical existence on earth. Life on earth isn’t the prize.

People blame God for the suffering we experience but fail to recognize that Satan is the author of sin and suffering. Satan is in control of this world through sin. Christians need to fight Satan and not God.

To those that ask how can you believe in such a fairytale when there is no proof. perhaps it’s because you are trying to relate to God through your worldly understanding and existence. I think one must first get in touch with their spiritual being in order to relate to or begin to understand God. Maybe, faith is to our spiritual being what physical “proof” is to our physical being.

Or something like that.

Anyway, below is a link to a better source of understanding than mine. Many years ago, I asked a priest at our church about some things that didn’t make sense to me and he told me to be open to understanding or believing. If you close that door, Satan is on the same side of the door as you. Keep the door open.


https://billygraham.org/story/...y-does-god-allow-it/

quote:

Originally posted by gearhounds:

quote:

Originally posted by Micropterus:

quote:

Originally posted by gearhounds:

Those are some pretty big jumps, and gives some idea why “holier than thou” people are seen as insufferable. Anger makes you have murder in your heart? Sorry, but that is retarded thinking from centuries ago.

A a a, holier than none. Just a reminder.

To say anger equates to murder is an absurdity, no matter what people 2000 years ago wrote. To suggest that being angry about something is to be guilty “before the court” is stunted thinking. To suggest that people that feel anger are somehow less lofty than those that profess not to is equally stunted. And a bit prideful on the part of those passing judgement, I might add.

No one has suggested that one who doesn't feel anger is more lofty that one who does. I've emphatically stated the opposite. The true Christian doesn't place himself above anyone in terms of worth, value or morality. Because he isn't. Moreover, I haven't stated I don't feel anger. I most certainly do. And that list of sin-questions thing I posted earlier - I'm as guilty of them all as you are, and more. The difference between the non-Christian and the Christian is that at some point in the Christian's life he comes to realize he is all these things. He is evil in his heart.

He realizes he has irrational hatreds.
He realizes that, while he doesn't actually kill anyone, that he is glad when someone gets killed that he thinks deserves it.
He's happy when someone receives "karma."
He hates the person who just cut him off in traffic and secretly hopes he crashes.
He uses language in his car he wouldn't use in front of his family.
He hates the person who disagrees with him politically and hopes he get caught in a scandal.
He's glad when someone who bragged about their new car that he doesn't have suffers a high repair bill.
He's secretly happy that someone who brags about their kid finds out they may be getting expelled for hosting an underage alcohol party at school.
He lusts for a co-worker who is prettier than his wife.
He looks at porn at night after his wife goes to bed, or on his phone while he's waiting in his truck while his wife is shopping.
He dumps money into guns and other things he doesn't need while his family needs a new furnace.
He eats like a pig, even when he is not hungry.
He feels entitled.
He thinks other owe him something.
He's quick to anger.
Short on listening.
Long on talking
It goes on and on and on.

Someone like me who realizes he has problems starts to think about it. He decide to turn over new leaf, to be different. To put things like this behind him. To be a new man.

But then he realizes that stopping is harder than it sounds. So he tries harder. Yet, he still can't stop. He tries and again, and fails again. He becomes desperate.

He says "what do I do?" I know these things are evil but I can't stop. I try and the harder I try the harder it is. Then he rightly concludes he can't stop.

Then he starts to panic. Yes, that's an appropriate word for someone who realizes all this. He realizes he is powerless. Helpless. He's come to the conclusion that he's evil in his heart. But there is nothing that he can do to stop. All the self help books, all the advice, all the wisdom on the internet, counselors - all of it - worthless.

He knows deep down there is a God and all this can't be acceptable to any God. God didn't make me this way. He made me pure and innocent like himself. We all were once, you know. And through years and years of indifference about my own worsening condition, I made myself like this. Now I can't stop.

And then something nags his conscience to read the Bible. He resists but the call gets stronger. So he picks it up and reads a bit. Perhaps very casually. And in no particular order - maybe just flopping it open somewhere, without any real interest until he sees something familiar, that resembles himself. Then his interest is peaked.

But it doesn't get better for him. It gets worse. Because he realizes the bible isn't just a book that one leaves on the coffee table so others can see it. He realizes it isn't just collective advice or a book of well wishes. He realizes it is a book that talks about the condition of man, and the fate of man in that condition. And he realizes the book isn't talking about someone else. He realizes the book is speaking about him. He, him, personally, the man in the mirror. And he becomes even more scared because what he sees about himself he knows is true. He realizes he is a terrible sinner.

Then the panic sets in harder. Because he realizes there is a God. And he is a just God. A holy God. A perfectly holy God. And this perfectly holy God doesn't tolerate any sin. None whatsoever. Be thou perfect as God in heaven is perfect.

But I can't be perfect. I've tried and I not only can't be perfect, I can't even get any better. And better is not good enough. What do I do? I understand I am a sinner unacceptable to Go who made himself everything God isn't. And now I can't fix myself. Explain it to me? Who can tell me? I'm ready to listen.

Then I repent. That's what repentance is, you know. The realization you are what you are and that it's not good and that you need help. It's really that simple.

Then I learn about Christ. The bible tells me he is the only begotten son of God. In fact, he is God himself, in the flesh, that was born into the world. A fact in history. A real person. The only person to ever live a perfect life acceptable to God. And he came, lived, preached, was killed and rose again. So what's that to me? He was perfect and I'm a sinner.

This is what it is to me. The bible tells me that while I am a sinner, God still loves me. And that he sent his son to suffer the consequences of all the sin I have ever committed or will commit. And that by my faith in Christ, God takes Christ's perfect righteousness and covers me with it so that when God looks on me, a terrible sinner, he sees the perfection of his own Son. And I am now fit to live in the presence of God despite myself.

Through all this, I've come to realize the gospel of Christ doesn't make me a better person.
It doesn't make me all religiousy.
The gospel doesn't make me stop committing sins.
It doesn't even make me completely want to stop.
I'm still evil in my heart.
What it did do was convince me that I was evil and that I needed a saviour. My body and my spirit are now constantly at war with each other over my condition. The bible speaks to this, too.
But I have a peace now that I never had before.

The gospel of Christ saves me. That's it.

So you think I judged YOU, huh? Brother, I judged myself.

I have no ill will toward you. I actually love you - though you may not understand that. I didn't. I know there is a God and he loves you as much as he loves me, and sent his son for you as much as he sent him for me. And that the call to Christ is as much for you as it is for me. God's plan for you will determine if you accept it. If you don't, well, the bible speaks of that, too. But I won't allow you to go to that fate without telling you about God and his Christ, and what he's done or you, and that he loves you to such and extent that he's counted every hair on your head, and that I love you like a brother.

That's the last I'll post in this thread.

quote:

Originally posted by Micropterus:

That's the last I'll post in this thread.

Please don't back out now.

I do not have the same religious beliefs that you do, but your posts are Good.

quote:

Originally posted by Micropterus:


I've emphatically stated the opposite. The true Christian doesn't place himself above anyone in terms of worth, value or morality.

I don't want to be that guy who derails this even farther, but by what criteria can one claim to be a "true Christian"? What authority allows one to say they are the "true" Christian, which, by extension, means that others are "false" Christians?

Based on what you stated above, clearly the Nicaean Creed must be important to defining a "true" Christian.

But what about Arian? I'm pretty sure he thought he was the true Christian at the Council of Nicaea and had the backing of scripture. Indeed, that most important Christological question of homoousios vs. homoiousios had battles fought over it before the Council of Nicaea. Why did it somehow get "settled" then?

So your version is the "true" version because some guys got together and voted on it and had more votes than some other guys who thought the other way?

If we need to go back to Nicaea then, doesn't that mean anyone who isn't Roman Catholic is technically a "false" Christian, because the Roman Catholic church was the de facto creation of the Council of Nicaea. So what about the East-West Schism or the Reformation? Are all those others "false" Christians?

I'm sure if we went back to Nicaea then in 325 AD you'd see that those guys who decided on "true Christianity" probably don't fit your definition of a "true Christian". But they were 1700 years closer to the actual life of Christ and had access to sources you don't, so how can you know better than them?

Who gets to decide who is the "real" one and who is the "fake" one?

Oooo, this is just getting good. Pass the beer and popcorn, please.

quote:

So you think I judged YOU, huh? Brother, I judged myself.

Actually, no. I think “learned” men 2000 years ago did the judging. And who is to say they were right? Who is to say that their written word is the word of any god?

To suggest that other cultures that don’t believe in a Christian god are doomed is arrogance. To suggest their faith is lesser is arrogance. To suggest that children that don’t receive baptism are stained with original sin, and therefore doomed if absurd.

I was raised a catholic and was disgusted by the hypocrisy of the Roman Catholic Church from an early age. As I said earlier, I have met a great many non-religious people that lived better, more honest lives than supposedly “religious” people. How a person lives their life regardless of what they profess to believe is what makes a person good. Not which book they read and place belief in.

quote:

Originally posted by ArtieS:
Yes, it's murder. The two fishermen referenced in the article probably didn't want to be there, and probably didn't want to convert anyone to Christianity. I'm pretty sure that all they were trying to do was survive. They ended up on dry land only to be killed by a bunch of xenophobes simply for existing.

The Andaman Islands are the territory of the nation of India. As a country with a legal system based on that of Great Britain, and as a nation that abides by the United Nations guidelines on human rights, you can bet that elsewhere in India, it's not legal to kill people for trespassing, which is what happened here.

Obviously, I disagree that it's ok to kill trespassers simply because these people want to be left alone.

That tribe is an “uncontacted people.” It seems like we have two choices, “honor” that and leave them in peace to live their lives in their home as they choose, or “fix” that and civilize or pacify them according to our rules. It appears the Indian government has chosen to honor that, making it illegal und our rules to have contact with them.

Heck, here in American we have Native American nations where you or I cannot legally carry a firearm, though we can legally carry a firearm within the state that nation is inside. I don’t like it, but their house, their rules.

quote:

Originally posted by Oat_Action_Man:
Who gets to decide who is the "real" one and who is the "fake" one?

Simple: The one rendering the opinion.

This is a variant on the “No true Scotsman” argument/logical fallacy. If we can dismiss the actions or beliefs of an individual or an entire group as invalid because they’re not really real, that instantly makes our own arguments unfalsifiable, and therefore immune to any sort of challenge.

I recently finished a book about influential American deists (Jefferson, Paine, Franklin, et al.) in the late 18th and early 19th centuries. Although the book generally treated them sympathetically, the author’s critique of them and their efforts criticized the fact that the deist movement during the era often focused on the absurdities of the Christian and Jewish bibles. He felt that weakened their arguments because he believes that even two hundred years ago any intelligent, reasonably-educated person would have long since abandoned any belief in the literal truth of such things as the myths of the Garden of Eden and the Noachian flood, and especially the bizarre concept of Original Sin. I have been tempted to send him some of the posts here to point out that no, such beliefs are still with us.

quote:

Originally posted by Oat_Action_Man:
But they were 1700 years closer to the actual life of Christ and had access to sources you don't, so how can you know better than them?

An excellent question I’ve asked of others myself, and I’ve never received even a reply, much less anything worthwhile. I can only imagine that if Thomas Jefferson came back to life, some people would dispute with him about what he meant by “Creator” in the Declaration of Independence.

quote:

Who gets to decide who is the "real" one and who is the "fake" one?

There is only one who can know who is a true Christian. There are many who draw near and honor Christ with their lips, but their hearts are far from Him. We see that often enough to makes cynics out of the most faithful of us. It is Christ alone who knows our hearts and He will separate the wheat from the tares.

It is my understanding that becoming wheat is the point of this life. We are born weak in body, mind and spirit. It is the purpose of this life to refine those facets to prepare ourselves to meet God and account. In this world, weak things are made stronger by pressing faithfully against resistance. Resistance comes in many, many forms. Frankly, try as we might to avoid it, resistance comes to all.

This may not be the comfort some are looking for when they ask why this awful thing happened or why evil is allowed to try us or where is God now? If the prime purpose is to create strong enough beings to be in His presence, then God must allow the trials to press us. I can't answer why one person suffers what he does while another escapes. The fact is, we all suffer to some degree. I am not the only one to have a total loss of a career through no fault of my own and all of the destruction that follows it. Mrs DF and I are no the only ones to have lost a child to drugs. We are not the only ones to have terrible health problems nor lost a child to miscarriage.

Over time I have learned it is what we do with those difficulties that renders the true benefit of suffering faithfully and humbly. We are both far stronger now after all of these years than we were when we were young and hawt. They are the wisdom and patience and gratitude and faith gained etc. that are the reward for enduring to the end without bitterness.

Yeah, life sucks sometimes and then we die. But we were always going to die. It is what we do with that life and death that matter eternally and all to our benefit eventually if we find faith and remain so faithful.

My 2 cents.

The answer is 42. The number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin, that is. You just need to know the right question....

With Christianity comprising roughly 3/10 of the Earth's religion, I have a hard time believing the other 70% are screwed.