quote:

Originally posted by gearhounds:

quote:

Originally posted by Micropterus:

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Originally posted by gearhounds:

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They are condemned to hell because they are evil in their heart. They are born that way

This is as absurd as the notion that any person that is not absolved of original sin via baptism is doomed. Some of the most honest, caring, giving people I know don’t believe in any religion.

Ask a "good" person these questions:

Have you ever been angry at someone? If yes, then they are a murderer in their heart.

Have they ever looked at a woman with lost? Then they are an adulterer in their heart.

Have they ever stolen anything, at all, ever? If so, they are a thief.

Have they ever used Gods name in vain? If so, they a blasphemer.

Any honest person answering those questions just admitted to being a murdering, adultering, thieving, blasphemer. And that's just 4 of the 10 commandments.

Tell me again how they deserve to live in a heaven with a perfect God?

Those are some pretty big jumps, and gives some idea why “holier than thou” people are seen as insufferable. Anger makes you have murder in your heart? Sorry, but that is retarded thinking from centuries ago.

+1000

Christianity is so easily misunderstood.
What might make sense logically in this world may be the polar opposite spiritually.

That's hard to fathom, even for me at one time.

When one realizes oneself is in this world but not of this world, you can start to view Christianity as it's meant to be.

I am still far off the mark, but closer than I used to be.
Just being a good person and doing good deeds does not get one to Heaven.
Sounds illogical right? That's because we view it from being worldly, not spiritually.

quote:

Originally posted by Otto Pilot:

quote:

Originally posted by Micropterus:
Have you ever been angry at someone? If yes, then they are a murderer in their heart.

Anger = Murder?

Um no. That's a twist that defies logic, though I would love to hear who came up with that equivalence.

As far I as ever heard, anger is neutral. Wrath, one of those seven deadlies that was established after the writing of the bible, is when anger is directed against the innocent.

If we are to take Jesus as an example for our behavior then even he got angry with cause (Mark 3:5), and let's not forget the cleansing of the Temple. Overturning tables and driving people out with a corded whip are not exactly calm and patient actions. There might be a spiritual penalty for unjust anger, but anger equaling murder...sorry.

Micropterus is Biblically accurate and it's in Matthew 5:21-23 and Jesus is the one making the following statements in quotes.

quote:

21 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

23 “Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, 24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift..

I'm probably summarizing the following in-eloquently. The Gospel of Matthew is widely believed to be written by a male Jew as it assumes the reader already knows The Law, and is tying together 2 concepts which are the need for a Savior/Messiah and Jesus is the Savior/Messiah.

Have to love Internet religious discussions.


To not believe there is a God/creator is rather odd. It's not my goal to be mean and rude, but atheism is so illogical it's laughable. Except it's not laughable because it destroys societies. I can understand not knowing which religion to buy into, or even being non religious, but atheist? That is out there.



Religious people can be annoying as well, and the over the top emotional based religion makes me want to puke. If it works for someone I guess that's great, but it often makes good religion look silly. We have to be logical in our arguments.


I would recommend Dennis Prager's book "The Rational Bible" to all. I especially recommend it to atheists who want to challenge themselves.

I don't know, but I think Mr. Chau might have forgotten this part.

Matthew 10:12-14 (KJV)

12 And when ye come into an house, salute it. 13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you. 14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

quote:

Originally posted by 2BobTanner:
I’ve read thru this but I might have missed it. He went there to preach the Gospel to them. Just how did he expect to communicate the Gospel to them?

From what I’ve read, he didn’t speak their language; in fact other than this grouping of people, no one else does either. And since they refuse contact with the outside world, seriously doubt if anyone speaks English or any other language other than theirs.

So again, How did he expect to spread the Gospel, other than by example which then hopes that they would be curious enough to want to find out what he was saying.

Yeah, this thread derailed quite a bit.

We're talking about a pre-neolithic culture; they do not the concept of clothing, pottery, creating fire at will, etc. They are just a step above monkeys. If they have some sort of religious thoughts or customs, it has been ingrained for thousands of years.

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Originally posted by tatortodd:

quote:

21 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

23 “Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, 24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift..

Actually, I'm aware of that prohibition, however, as I was taught, that is a prohibition against unjust anger and letting anger lead to destructive behavior behavior. One might say unjust wrathful anger might lead to the risk of violence and therefore is dangerous and sinful. However, nowhere can I find that all anger itself is spiritually tantamount to murder and I do not believe I can be convinced otherwise, *shrug*

In the end, though, all we are dealing with is commentary and opinion as the writer of Matthew is no longer around to answer our questions. Given the nature of even these conversations, I'll simply have to go with the idea that if I try and be just with my anger and don't shoot my mouth off against my fellows, I am doing as OK as I am constitutionally fit to do.

Much past that, we are getting into "My kung-fu is better than your kung-fu" territory, and that is simply pointless bordering on pride and hubris. So, I shall tip my hat and be on my way leaving you with this commentary that rings true to me.

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I. Consider then, first, the solemn fact of Christ’s anger.

It is the only occasion, so far as I remember, upon which that emotion is attributed to Him. Once, and once only, the flash came out of the clear sky of that meek and gentle heart. He was once angry; and we may learn the lesson of the possibilities that lay slumbering in His love. He was only once angry, and we may learn the lesson that His perfect and divine charity ‘is not easily provoked.’ These very words from Paul’s wonderful picture may teach us that the perfection of divine charity does not consist in its being incapable of becoming angry at all, but only in its not being angry except upon grave and good occasion.

Christ’s anger was part of the perfection of His manhood. The man that cannot be angry at evil lacks enthusiasm for good. The nature that is incapable of being touched with generous and righteous indignation is so, generally, either because it lacks fire and emotion altogether, or because its vigour has been dissolved into a lazy indifference and easy good nature which it mistakes for love. Better the heat of the tropics, though sometimes the thunderstorms may gather, than the white calmness of the frozen poles. Anger is not weakness, but it is strength, if there be these three conditions, if it be evoked by a righteous and unselfish cause, if it be kept under rigid control, and if there be nothing in it of malice, even when it prompts to punishment. Anger is just and right when it is not produced by the mere friction of personal irritation {like electricity by rubbing}, but is excited by the contemplation of evil. It is part of the marks of a good man that he kindles into wrath when he sees ‘the oppressor’s wrong.’ If you went out hence to-night, and saw some drunken ruffian beating his wife or ill-using his child, would you not do well to be angry? And when nations have risen up, as our own nation did seventy years ago in a paroxysm of righteous indignation, and vowed that British soil should no more bear the devilish abomination of slavery, was there nothing good and great in that wrath? So it is one of the strengths of man that he shall be able to glow with indignation at evil.

[/drift]

The only possible way to find any logical sense in many of the demands and prohibitions in the various Jewish/Christian bibles passed down to us over the centuries is to understand the context in which they were originally written. Although it wasn’t as true by the time of Jesus, all the various commandments were set down for a small, tightly-knit and primitive society in a harsh environment, and often at odds with hostile neighbors. In such a society, the cohesion of its members is extremely important. Stealing, killing, committing adultery, and even “coveting” the property (including wives and slaves) of others would have been extremely detrimental to the group’s solidarity—but only if committed against members of the group. That’s why in the same book there can be a commandment against killing, but other divine commands to slaughter everyone in an enemy group. “Thou shalt not kill” is truncated, but was clearly understood to mean “Don’t kill other members of the tribe.” (The current “Don’t murder” interpretation came much later after society decided that killing even members of the tribe was sometimes necessary.)

But why the seemingly incomprehensible commands against even thinking about wanting to screw a woman not my wife or that I’d like to have Jacob’s fine goat? Because in order to control behavior, the best first step is to control the thoughts. If I’m convinced that even lusting in my heart is a sin that endangers my soul, I’m much less likely to take my desires any further: No thinking, no looking, no approaching, no flirting, no propositions, no screwing.* The same is true of the other great sins. If I control my anger, I’m much less likely to get into a fight that will leave someone dead and possibly a widow and orphans for the group to somehow care for. The same “No thinking about it!” prohibitions exist to this day in nonreligious contexts. If we’re conditioned to believe that even considering the idea that different racial groups may actually be different in other than superficial ways, then we’ll be careful to not treat them differently. (Maybe, but that’s the idea anyway.)

And of course it’s not really wise to explain all that in that way to a bunch of primitives, then or now. It’s very easy to rationalize the “I’m just thinking about it” first step as not being bad, and then where do we draw the line? If everyone can be convinced that they’re annoying God with their thoughts and he’s likely to smite not only the thinker but also the entire group, it’s far more likely to be effective in controlling the actual behavior.

* Note, BTW, that the commandment is about adultery that has a adverse effect on families and can lead to fights, feuds, murders. Although preachers try to equate sexual intercourse between unmarried partners with adultery, it’s not the same in its effects on the group. Two young people enjoy each other, the woman gets pregnant, and then they get married; no big deal. If one or both are already married, however, then that’s not possible, and now what do we do?

Are we not made in God's image? Did he or didn't he create me?

If he did, then he made me a lusty, angry, person.

Did God give my wife cancer? Did he give her Wegeners Disease on top of it? I may be a piece of shit but my wife is a saint. Why punish her? If there is justice i would be sick not her. And why did some punk asshole hit my dad's car and screw his leg up for life? My dad who is a Christian God believing man, a man who even forgave the asshole who hit him and didn't sue him or his family, despite the fact that this kid had zero remorse and was a smug prick about the whole thing while my dad was in the hospital for three months?

And I don't ask that to be an asshole. I ask that as a real question. Where was this God then?

And Jesus was the first to chastise the people for being petty and specific in the exact words of law, it was the spirit of the law that mattered. He didn't literally mean if you see a pretty girl and think "damn she's hot" for a moment before going on with your day that's the same as fucking her. To believe that is the height of stupidity. He meant if you are consumed by lust and anger and that's all you are at the core of your being then you are no good.

And wouldn't your Jesus tell you to stop being so judgemental of others? wouldn't he tell you to embrace everyone, not condemn them based on some holier than thou bullshit? Think on your own hypocrisy before preaching your BS to me. Have your popes and bishops sell off everything they own and the church owns and preach in a tent while tending to the poor. Open your churches and synagogues and whatever to the homeless, 24 hours a day. You don't need fancy buildings and robes and gold laced Bibles......

And yes to get back to the original post, the guy was a fucking idiot. And he died like one.

quote:

Originally posted by Lord Vaalic:
Are we not made in God's image? Did he or didn't he create me?

If he did, then he made me a lusty, angry, person.

Did God give my wife cancer? Did he give her Wegeners Disease on top of it? I may be a piece of shit but my wife is a saint. Why punish her? If there is justice i would be sick not her. And why did some punk asshole hit my dad's car and screw his leg up for life? My dad who is a Christian God believing man, a man who even forgave the asshole who hit him and didn't sue him or his family, despite the fact that this kid had zero remorse and was a smug prick about the whole thing while my dad was in the hospital for three months?

And I don't ask that to be an asshole. I ask that as a real question. Where was this God then?

And Jesus was the first to chastise the people for being petty and specific in the exact words of law, it was the spirit of the law that mattered. He didn't literally mean if you see a pretty girl and think "damn she's hot" for a moment before going on with your day that's the same as fucking her. To believe that is the height of stupidity. He meant if you are consumed by lust and anger and that's all you are at the core of your being then you are no good.

And wouldn't your Jesus tell you to stop being so judgemental of others? wouldn't he tell you to embrace everyone, not condemn them based on some holier than thou bullshit? Think on your own hypocrisy before preaching your BS to me. Have your popes and bishops sell off everything they own and the church owns and preach in a tent while tending to the poor. Open your churches and synagogues and whatever to the homeless, 24 hours a day. You don't need fancy buildings and robes and gold laced Bibles......

And yes to get back to the original post, the guy was a fucking idiot. And he died like one.

Mr Vaalic, I have and keep sending good thoughts to you and especially your wifes way. Be strong!

quote:

Originally posted by Lord Vaalic:
Are we not made in God's image? Did he or didn't he create me?

If he did, then he made me a lusty, angry, person.

Did God give my wife cancer? Did he give her Wegeners Disease on top of it? I may be a piece of shit but my wife is a saint. Why punish her? If there is justice i would be sick not her. And why did some punk asshole hit my dad's car and screw his leg up for life? My dad who is a Christian God believing man, a man who even forgave the asshole who hit him and didn't sue him or his family, despite the fact that this kid had zero remorse and was a smug prick about the whole thing while my dad was in the hospital for three months?

And I don't ask that to be an asshole. I ask that as a real question. Where was this God then?

And Jesus was the first to chastise the people for being petty and specific in the exact words of law, it was the spirit of the law that mattered. He didn't literally mean if you see a pretty girl and think "damn she's hot" for a moment before going on with your day that's the same as fucking her. To believe that is the height of stupidity. He meant if you are consumed by lust and anger and that's all you are at the core of your being then you are no good.

And wouldn't your Jesus tell you to stop being so judgemental of others? wouldn't he tell you to embrace everyone, not condemn them based on some holier than thou bullshit? Think on your own hypocrisy before preaching your BS to me. Have your popes and bishops sell off everything they own and the church owns and preach in a tent while tending to the poor. Open your churches and synagogues and whatever to the homeless, 24 hours a day. You don't need fancy buildings and robes and gold laced Bibles......

And yes to get back to the original post, the guy was a fucking idiot. And he died like one.

I have no answers to your questions.

I'm very sorry for what you and your wife have went through and are going through.

My significant other has lupus and is almost daily in constant pain. It's hard to watch. She is a kind and simple person.

I wish peace upon you and your wife.

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Originally posted by Palm:

Serious question - why are you saying that being angry at someone makes you a murderer at heart? Is this in the Bible somewhere?

"You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘You shall not commit murder’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court..." Matthew 5:21-22
"Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." 1 John 3:15

Anger is a dangerous sin, and as evil as the act of murder itself.

quote:

Originally posted by Micropterus:

quote:

Originally posted by Palm:

Serious question - why are you saying that being angry at someone makes you a murderer at heart? Is this in the Bible somewhere?

"You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘You shall not commit murder’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court..." Matthew 5:21-22
"Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." 1 John 3:15

Anger is a dangerous sin, and as evil as the act of murder itself.

Thank you.

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Originally posted by gearhounds:

Those are some pretty big jumps, and gives some idea why “holier than thou” people are seen as insufferable. Anger makes you have murder in your heart? Sorry, but that is retarded thinking from centuries ago.

A a a, holier than none. Just a reminder.

quote:

Originally posted by Micropterus:

quote:

Originally posted by gearhounds:

Those are some pretty big jumps, and gives some idea why “holier than thou” people are seen as insufferable. Anger makes you have murder in your heart? Sorry, but that is retarded thinking from centuries ago.

A a a, holier than none. Just a reminder.

To say anger equates to murder is an absurdity, no matter what people 2000 years ago wrote. To suggest that being angry about something is to be guilty “before the court” is stunted thinking. To suggest that people that feel anger are somehow less lofty than those that profess not to is equally stunted. And a bit prideful on the part of those passing judgement, I might add.

quote:

Originally posted by Micropterus:

quote:

Originally posted by Palm:

Serious question - why are you saying that being angry at someone makes you a murderer at heart? Is this in the Bible somewhere?

"You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘You shall not commit murder’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court..." Matthew 5:21-22
"Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." 1 John 3:15

Anger is a dangerous sin, and as evil as the act of murder itself.

Pride is also a sin.... Thinking you know better than everyone.

Anger is dangerous yes, even Yoda taught us that. I guess you can even make the stretch that anger is "evil"... But to equate it with murder is stupid.

So, you've never been annoyed that you can't find the remote, or been cut off in traffic? You've never been angry, frustrated, annoyed, miffed, pissed, bothered, put out, ruffled, etc? If so, well you and Jeffrey Dahmer are just peas in a pod.

What a crock of shit....

I seem to remember Jesus getting angry and flipping over tables at money changers in his father's house? Guess he's a no good murderer going to hell.

What about your post in the "pitch your bitch" section about hating business jargon?

Hate my friend... Hate. Guess you'll be joining us for an eternal fire party where we will discuss paradigms and synergies and corporate culture and asset alignment with Hitler....

And I want an answer from you, you who knows God and what he wants and how he thinks....

Why did the baby we were adopting last year die from disease? Why? What sin did that baby commit in his 4 months on earth? What sin did my unborn child commit when my wife had a miscarriage?

You can't have it both ways... You cant. Either your God is responsible for what happens or he isn't. Which is it?

I'm not special, I have many things in my life that are good and wonderful, and have had tragedy as well. That makes me no different than anyone. We all have sadness and joy. Life's a bitch.

My son can piss me off like crazy. So I guess that's the same as murdering him?

Thats so fucking stupid that I don't have any more words.

quote:

Originally posted by TheNewbie:
Have to love Internet religious discussions.


To not believe there is a God/creator is rather odd. It's not my goal to be mean and rude, but atheism is so illogical it's laughable. Except it's not laughable because it destroys societies. I can understand not knowing which religion to buy into, or even being non religious, but atheist? That is out there.



Religious people can be annoying as well, and the over the top emotional based religion makes me want to puke. If it works for someone I guess that's great, but it often makes good religion look silly. We have to be logical in our arguments.


I would recommend Dennis Prager's book "The Rational Bible" to all. I especially recommend it to atheists who want to challenge themselves.

I find it much more illogical to believe in things with zero proof....laughable actually.

quote:

Originally posted by Lord Vaalic:
What sin did that baby commit in his 4 months on earth?

The baby’s “sin” is based entirely on ridiculous myth. It was transferred to him/her because of the supposed acts of a pair of people generations ago who fell into the trap set for them by their supposed benevolent, loving creator who knew exactly what they would do and why from the moment he decided to create them.

That tale is so revolting that anyone with two brain cells to rub together should turn away from it in disgust and should seriously ask whether anyone who actually believes it is fit to walk the streets without a keeper.