Jim Chau isn’t in that body anymore, and there’s no reason to trade arrows or bullets over his corpse. I think you’re mad at them and want vengeance. Not healthy, man. Certainly not what Christ would want.

One thing can be said with certainty, Mr. Chau was murdered, plain and simple.

It matters not what that tribe's customs are, they murdered him.

hooo boy, there were some doozies up in here. I'm sorry I missed most of the live show.

I missed the call for martyrdom.
"What's it all about Alfie?"

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Originally posted by ArtieS:

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Originally posted by CPD SIG:

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Originally posted by ArtieS:

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“We are consulting anthropologists to see what kind of friendly gesture we can make.”

How about a hail of bullets? That's kind of the universal modern world's version of "don't fuck with us." Methinks the noble savages would understand the message. Speaking the "lingua franca" as it were.

I hope you're not serious about the whole "hail of bullets" thing.

Why not? I see it this way.
.

Let's look at the proximate cause here. What kicked this whole thing off?
Chau, on his own, went to a place that he shouldn't have been at, that has a history of violence towards outsiders. Whatever Chau's reasoning was, is kind of immaterial at this point. Chau was met with a "hail of bullets", well, arrows because of the whole lack of technology thing they got going on.

Like you said, kinda a universal "Don't fuck with us!"

Chau fucked with them. From what the article said, multiple times over two days. Each time he was met with some sort of "Don't fuck with us" from the Sentinelse.
Chau apparently wasn't picking up on what the Sentinelse were putting down.
Now someone wants the body back, further fucking with the Sentinelse.

Do you think that the Sentinelse know, have a concept of, care that they happen to fall "under the jurisdiction of" India/ some other governing body? They're just sitting on their island, doing their island thing, not messing with anyone. And again, the sign on the door says "Do not disturb".

Now you propose that India, or some other government go in with a "hail of bullets" as some form of bullying?

Think about it... The Sentinelse have been saying "Don't fuck with us!"
Someone (went out of their way and) fucked with them.
Now, you want someone else (with a bigger stick) to go and fuck with them.

For what? Because they want to be left alone?/.

How about we just leave them alone?
Savages, heathens, Godless bastards, poets, true warriors, inbred retards, savants, comics, chosen people... whatever they are, and have been doing for the past few THOUSAND YEARS... Why don't we just let them do it all on their own little island, all by themselves.

quote:

Originally posted by lbj:
One thing can be said with certainty, Mr. Chau was murdered, plain and simple.

It matters not what that tribe's customs are, they murdered him.

Why doesn't it matter what that tribes customs are?


If I come on to your property, into your house, and you toss a couple of rounds past my head, I don't take that warning, and I keep advancing...


All I did was change the venue, and the timespan.


And if you did "stop the threat", would you have murdered or killed me?

Just leave the folks the hell alone.

CPD SIG:

I will try to answer this without being too tounge-in-cheek, or by resorting to hyperbole. I freely admit that my "hail of bullets" post has some spice in it, and I will try to avoid that here. I also acknowledge that my follow up to that post is unhelpfully sarcastic, and likewise, will try to avoid that as well.

As odd as it seems from my posts in this thread, I have tremendous respect for human life, and believe that, absent an attack likely to result in death or severe bodily harm, the safety, dignity, health and life of every human should be respected.

The article that started this thread indicates that in recent years, this tribe has killed three people. Two were shipwrecked fishermen, and one was Chau. Unlike Chau, the fishermen most probably didn't want to end up there, and certainly didn't go there with the intent of violating the Indian government's prohibition on going to North Sentinel Island. There were killed anyway. Chau went to proselytize. Some here may not like that, but he certainly didn't go with the intent of causing death or bodily harm, and again, was killed simply for being there.

All three of these people were unarmed, and were killed apparently without any overt aggression toward their killers. They were killed simply because they were there.

These tribesmen know that the outside world exists. They were contacted by the Indian government in the '90s, see helicopters over the island, ships and boats near the island and the people that operate those boats and aircraft. They use metal that washes up on the beaches to make the weapons that they use to kill people who wash up on the beaches.

They are protected in this killing by the Indian government that enforces the no-go zone around North Sentinel. My position is that it should be explained to them in terms they would understand, that killing people who wash up on your island is unacceptable behavior of members of the human race. The Indian government will permit them to remain "in a state of nature" if that's what they want, but there's a cost to that protection; they don't get to kill the otherwise innocent with impunity. It also seems to me that the only way that they are going to get that message is by the application of sufficient force to let them know that behavior modification is required for their continued survival.

I don't defend Chau's actions. He violated Indian law, and he lacked common sense and discretion. But neither he, nor the marooned fishermen deserved death. Would we all be ok with them killing intruders if a passenger airplane had to ditch there, and they massacred the passengers and crew?

The Indian government should expect certain human decency from the people that live under it's protection, and it should demand such decency from the inhabitants of North Sentinel Island.

Leaving aside Chau for the moment, as his motives were religious, but considering the plight of the marooned fishermen, it deeply offends a normal sense of balance and human decency that these guys are free to kill people to preserve their way of life, and that they are protected from the otherwise natural consequences of such actions by the Indian government. In the ordinary tribal sense, the residents of North Sentinel should be worried that the "tribe" to which the fishermen belong would load up the long boats, set sail, and come wreak havoc on them for their transgressions. But that can't happen, because of the insulation provided by the Indian government. Thus, my position, that in order to retain balance, and prevent revenge, the Indian government must behave as a responsible sovereign, and deal with the issue.

No matter how much some may desire it, there is truly no ability to wholly separate from the surrounding world. I do not wish gratuitous harm on these people. I don't demand that they give up their island and move into the modern world. I don't advocate that their children be taken from them, inoculated and educated. I don't want to see them perish from diseases from which they have no immunity. But at the same time, they should not be able to take the lives of others with impunity.

Edited for some spelling and clarity.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ArtieS,

Artie I read you previous posts and thought

But now I read this post and it makes sense to me. So good job changing my mind, for what it’s worth.

Artie -

I'll have to give this another read thru in a bit, but I think I agree with every word. Well done.

quote:

Originally posted by wrightd:
I spoke with a christian evangelist (a real one, not a tv preacher rip off artist) and he said he quit evangelizing in the US because people didn't want to hear about it. He said there were lots of places in the world where he goes that people DO want to hear the christian gospel. I would call that practical wisdom. IIRC he was pretty successful outside of the US.

Precisely. I have nothing against someone wanting to be a man of God and preach the gospel. But that man should use the brain that God "supposedly" gave him. This instance was nothing more than an epic failure all the way around.

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Unlike Chau, the fishermen most probably didn't want to end up there, and certainly didn't go there with the intent of violating the Indian government's prohibition on going to North Sentinel Island. There were killed anyway.

I'd refer you back to the article that the fishermen did go there with the intent of violating the Indian government prohibition.

They were they illegally fishing in prohibited waters. Their misfortune, or karma, was that their anchorage broke loose while they were sleeping and their boat drifted onto the island. Even their fellow poachers yelling at them did not wake them. Perhaps their fate was predestined by their actions...definitely some karma are work

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Chau went to proselytize. Some here may not like that, but he certainly didn't go with the intent of causing death or bodily harm, and again, was killed simply for being there.

It could easily be argued that his mere contact with the islanders could cause their death via the germs he carried. After all, this had been their previous experience with outsiders.

This incident could easily fall under the heading of Darwin at work

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Originally posted by 9mmepiphany:

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Chau went to proselytize. Some here may not like that, but he certainly didn't go with the intent of causing death or bodily harm, and again, was killed simply for being there.

It could easily be argued that his mere contact with the islanders could cause their death via the germs he carried. After all, this had been their previous experience with outsiders

I argued that earlier in the thread and I’ll say it again: we don’t yet know that he didn’t. If half the tribe drops dead in the coming months from something he brought to the island, then maybe the point some aren’t getting will be harder to ignore. And the tribe will be even less welcoming of further interlopers, regardless of whatever mainland government deigns to have jurisdiction.

Artie, I appreciate your follow up comments, they certainly are more logical and less monstrous, but I posit to you that there’s no way to communicate with these people, and on top of that, they don’t want to. They likely have no idea that there’s such a thing as an India, let alone an Indian government that they’re subservient to. I see no real solution or practicable justice other than people just leaving them the hell alone, which is what they want.

It will indeed be unfortunate if complete morons seek to continue to try to go to that island to push upon the inhabitants the fact that the outside world exists, to the point where some government decides to back that point up with force. Anyone cheerleading that cause, I cannot, will not agree with.

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Originally posted by charlie12:
Just leave the folks the hell alone.

A heaping helping of this notion is what the world needs substantially more of.

Home, abroad, day, night, East, West, North, South, rich or poor, just MYOB.

Darn shame the same result doesn't happen to almost all uninvited solicitors.

Folks in this thread trying to apply modern laws and modern civilized understandings of humanity to an entirely uncivilized, animal like civilization. Absolute madness.

These Indians are uncivilized savages. As such, they live like savages. They rape, plunder, and kill at will, because that's was uncivilized people do. For fawks sake.

Uncontacted tribes should just be left the hell alone and appreciated for what they are. .. a people from a long gone era. Kind of like watching an alligator in the wild. Observe from afar, and appreciate it for what it is.

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Originally posted by bubbatime:
Folks in this thread trying to apply modern laws and modern civilized understandings of humanity to an entirely uncivilized, animal like civilization. Absolute madness.

These Indians are uncivilized savages. As such, they live like savages. They rape, plunder, and kill at will, because that's was uncivilized people do. For fawks sake.

Uncontacted tribes should just be left the hell alone and appreciated for what they are. .. a people from a long gone era. Kind of like watching an alligator in the wild. Observe from afar, and appreciate it for what it is.

Bet you a crisp dollar bill that the rape, pillage, murder stats of our modern "civilized" world is much worse than that of these "savages".

Clothing and technology choices aside, the idea that they're all that different or we're all that better is what's absolute madness.

Not that I'd rather live like them, I like my phone and indoor plumbing.

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Originally posted by 46and2:

quote:

Originally posted by bubbatime:
Folks in this thread trying to apply modern laws and modern civilized understandings of humanity to an entirely uncivilized, animal like civilization. Absolute madness.

These Indians are uncivilized savages. As such, they live like savages. They rape, plunder, and kill at will, because that's was uncivilized people do. For fawks sake.

Uncontacted tribes should just be left the hell alone and appreciated for what they are. .. a people from a long gone era. Kind of like watching an alligator in the wild. Observe from afar, and appreciate it for what it is.

Bet you a crisp dollar bill that the rape, pillage, murder stats of our modern "civilized" world is much worse than that of these "savages".

Clothing and technology choices aside, the idea that they're all that different or we're all that better is what's absolute madness.

Not that I'd rather live like them, I like my phone and indoor plumbing.

You haven’t lived until you shit in a hole, whiped your ass with leaves, and scared away intrudross by angrily shaking your dick at them. Don’t knock it ‘til you try it

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Bet you a crisp dollar bill that the rape, pillage, murder stats of our modern "civilized" world is much worse than that of these "savages".

Ah, a follower of Rousseau. "Noble savage" indeed.
I would say it's only the lack of adequate killing technology that keeps the "savage" tribes from annihilating each other, in many instances.

It's interesting that all of the apostles, save John, were once ardent non-Christians who became Christians who died at the hands of those to whom they preached the Gospel.

Peter and Paul - Both martyred in Rome about 66 AD, during the persecution under Emperor Nero. Paul was beheaded. Peter was crucified, upside down at his request, since he did not feel he was worthy to die in the same manner as his Lord.

Andrew went to the "land of the man-eaters," in what is now the Soviet Union. Christians there claim him as the first to bring the gospel to their land. He also preached in Asia Minor, modern-day Turkey, and in Greece, where he is said to have been crucified.

Thomas was probably most active in the area east of Syria. Tradition has him preaching as far east as India, where the ancient Marthoma Christians revere him as their founder. They claim that he died there when pierced through with spears.

Philip possibly had a powerful ministry in Carthage in North Africa and then in Asia Minor, where he converted the wife of a Roman proconsul. In retaliation the proconsul had Philip arrested and cruelly put to death.

Matthew the tax collector and writer of a Gospel, ministered in Persia and Ethiopia. Some of the oldest reports say he was not martyred, while others say he was stabbed to death in Ethiopia.

Bartholomew had widespread missionary travels attributed to him by tradition: to India with Thomas, back to Armenia, and also to Ethiopia and Southern Arabia. There are various accounts of how he met his death as a martyr for the gospel.

James the son of Alpheus, is one of at least three James referred to in the New Testament. James is reckoned to have ministered in Syria. The Jewish historian Josephus reported that he was stoned and then clubbed to death.

Simon the Zealot ministered in Persia and was killed after refusing to sacrifice to the sun god.

Matthais was the apostle chosen to replace Judas. Tradition sends him to Syria with Andrew and to death by burning.

John is the only one of the company generally thought to have died a natural death from old age. He was the leader of the church in the Ephesus area and is said to have taken care of Mary the mother of Jesus in his home. During Domitian's persecution in the middle 90's, he was exiled to the island of Patmos. There he is credited with writing the last book of the New Testament--the Revelation. An early Latin tradition has him escaping unhurt after being cast into boiling oil at Rome.

No one here knows, NO ONE, what impact Chau's mission had on these people. Chau died. He's in good company. Maybe he introduced the flu. Maybe one native, just one, was impacted in some way by what he did. And that might be the impetus for change over the long term. Who knows. No one hear, including me, that's the single certainty. 2000 years later, these apostles are credited with taking the gospel to a hostile world. The Christian faith, 2000 years later, is now the biggest faith in the world.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Micropterus,

quote:

Originally posted by ArtieS:
Would we all be ok with them killing intruders if a passenger airplane had to ditch there, and they massacred the passengers and crew?

Not to enter the debate and express my own opinion about the incident(s), but that’s exactly what the Soviet Union did in 1983 when they shot down Korean Airlines flight 007. They killed a passenger aircraft full of people for no reason other than that it entered an area the Russians didn’t want them in. That was the most egregious example of people being killed for trying to enter restricted areas in Communist totalitarian countries, but hardly the only one. And those killings weren’t by tribes of backward savages … well, maybe not backward anyway.

Most of us here would probably object to such incidents, but what about the guy who was killed when he tried to enter a restricted area in the Pentagon? (I can’t find that now, but believe I remember it correctly.) No one got charged with murder in those incidents as far as I know.