Use of force:

1] "protest" the election of Trump and block the most used streets in downtown Portland and block the light rail during rush hour, affecting thousands, and blocking ambulances from getting to the hospital: NO USE OF FORCE. Police are told by the mayor this is just free speech.

2] Sit in an airline seat for which you have a valid boarding pass, and after the gate agent lets you board, and try to explain that you really need to get someplace, and really need the seat that you paid for: USE OF FORCE. concussion, 2 teeth knocked out, and a broken nose.

something just ain't right.

quote:

Originally posted by Fenris:
I thought $1350 was the max offer legally allowed by Federal Regs. Oh, well. I guess that fake limit was just another excuse to try and excuse the inexcusable.

If I understand correctly, $1,350 is the max offer that is required. Nothing prevents the airline from offering more than the required amount. I could be wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by V-Tail:

quote:

Originally posted by Fenris:
I thought $1350 was the max offer legally allowed by Federal Regs. Oh, well. I guess that fake limit was just another excuse to try and excuse the inexcusable.

If I understand correctly, $1,350 is the max offer that is required. Nothing prevents the airline from offering more than the required amount. I could be wrong.

But they didn't offer $1350 before going Gestapo on this dangerous belligerent?

Perhaps air passengers should be armed in order to protect themselves and other passengers from terrorists and airport thugs.

quote:

Originally posted by Fenris:

Looking back, I should have just stayed in my seat on the plane.

That's the problem with the pilots within this thread. They just don't understand the cascading effects it has on the travelers when we get bumped from a flight. Sure, it's all fine and dandy for the airline because they have solved their problem, but they have forgotten how much of a hassle it is to get in contact with the party waiting for you (the people picking you up may have had their own plans too, so now they have to re-prioritize), and reschedule your work or personal plans. Never mind the fact that I've already made it through the shit show that is the TSA lines and I will now need to get re-screened if I have to spend a night in a hotel.

The pilots here have no idea about how many other people (and businesses) are affected by just one person getting bumped from their flights, and from what I have seen in this thread, they just don't care. As a young soldier coming home on leave, my dad would drop what he was doing for an entire day just to sit in shitty Northern Virginia traffic to come pick me up from the airport. Had I not been on the flight I told him, he wouldn't have lost pay for just the day I was to be picked up, but also for the next day when I actually got to fly out. Once my ass is in a seat, its not coming out of it for anything short of the plane being on fire, as I typically do not cause problems that would get me dismissed from an aircraft, same as with Dr. Dao.

I hope that the small percentage of people that disagree that UAL has done anything wrong will open their eyes and see how us PAYING customers feel. You know, the people that actually buy their service in hopes that we don't get beaten into compliance with unreasonable (and irresponsible) business practices.

Kind-a seems like a civil matter. A guy has a valid boarding pass, and is causing no problems sitting in his seat.

Cops are called.

Cops SHOULD HAVE looked at the valid boarding pass, seen that passenger was not causing any issues to the operation of the plane, told the crew it was a civil matter, and gone away.

quote:

Originally posted by radioman:
Kind-a seems like a civil matter. A guy has a valid boarding pass, and is causing no problems sitting in his seat.

Cops are called.

Cops SHOULD HAVE looked at the valid boarding pass, seen that passenger was not causing any issues to the operation of the plane, told the crew it was a civil matter, and gone away.

These weren't even cops. They were thugs masquerading as airport security.

quote:

Originally posted by 12131:

quote:

Originally posted by radioman:
Kind-a seems like a civil matter. A guy has a valid boarding pass, and is causing no problems sitting in his seat.

Cops are called.

Cops SHOULD HAVE looked at the valid boarding pass, seen that passenger was not causing any issues to the operation of the plane, told the crew it was a civil matter, and gone away.

These weren't even cops. They were thugs masquerading as airport security.

Oh, I bet if the airline would have called a real cop, the outcome would have been different.

So these guys are like the bouncers at the local sports-bar? Huge liability for them to go hands-on with someone, as they will find.

90% of the time I fly for recreation, and I fly non-stop. There's usually nobody waiting for me there and my car is at the airport for the return. I wish someone would offer me $800 bucks to wait a day. I've never even heard this offered at a gate. Pre 9/11 my work partner and I flew Southwest. Since we were armed, we walked around security and then found we were the only two passengers on the plane. We played cards in the back with the flight attendants the whole flight.

I feel those days are long gone. As was eloquently stated in the Hangover- "Thanks Bin Laden"

The Dr will get paid to go away, this will be forgotten by next week and everyone that flies will fly as usual. After all, Hawaii is a long swim with luggage.

quote:

Originally posted by ScreamingCockatoo:

............Fine, anyways, a boarding agent asked if we'd like to hitch up on a ferry flight to ATL at around 3am.
So we found the gate and there it was a 757. We watched the fireworks from the gate and eventually our crew, led by who could pass for Walter Mattheau showed up.
There were 4 of us un the cabin, my wife and I, a pilot and a woman who went to the back of the plane.
There was no inflight service.
We got to sit in first class and the pilot seated across from us chatted the whole ride home.
AND we got the $1600!

I once flew a ferry flight from San Francisco airport to Oakland because of a flight jam up. Sadly no vouchers, but the only passenger, barely got to some altitude before landing...

To our Sig-forum pilots:

I would like to extend an olive branch.

If you feel I’ve come across as an unreasonable asshole in my arguments, please allow me to apologize.
That is not my intention.
This subject has clearly touched a nerve with a lot of people, and emotions are running pretty high.

My position is unwavering, but I can disagree with someone without making it personal.

The men & women that fly us to our destinations have my respect, believe me.

Since we are all something of a family here on this great forum, I think this needed to be said.

-Jim

quote:

Originally posted by jack32586:
I wish someone would offer me $800 bucks to wait a day. I've never even heard this offered at a gate.

I always fly the day before I need to get anywhere. I typically fly from my local regional to connect out of ATL, and usually catch the first flight of the morning. They (Delta Connection/ExpressJet) almost always overbook that first flight of the day.
I took 4 $800 vouchers last year in the span of 6 months, not to fly the next day, but to fly 2 flights (literally 4 hours) later. I told the ticketing agent that as long as I could connect and still arrive that day, I would take the voucher and wait.

Mind you, this was always well before boarding began, NOT after everyone was seated. To me, the further along into the travel process I get, the less likely I am (and most people in general) to want to change plans.

As far as the pilots the ongoing argument about the regulations, I certainly understand the points of view that adherence to the regs doesn't allow any leeway to how the flight crew staffing is handled.
Past that, how the airlines treat their customers, when the regs come into conflict with reality of the day, when maybe nobody is inclined to be monitarily coerced into leaving the plane is the only issue.
Many industries/companies become a slave to the process, that must be served above all else, including the customer.
Arguing that the flight crew staffing regs, are primary, loses sight of the point.
I have had both crappy and wonderful flight experiences, but in this era of commodity flights, it is mostly get from point A to B with the least headache....

I don't fly anymore, but my wife does. She says since 9/11, the flight crews often act as petty tyrants.

It's surprising more passengers aren't beaten. Maybe next time they can kneecap a granny. Score.

United Pilots Furious Over Passenger Incident

https://www.yahoo.com/news/uni...enger-163732437.html

On Thursday, United Master Executive Council - the union that represents all of the airline's 12,500 pilots - released a letter condemning the violent removal of Dr. David Dao from Flight 3411, set to leave from Chicago to Louisville last Sunday.

"The safety and well-being of our passengers is the highest priority for United pilots, and this should not have escalated into a violent encounter," they wrote. "United pilots are infuriated by this event."

The letter went on to claim that the incident occurrent on one of United's "contracted Express carriers, separately owned and operated by Republic Airline." As a result, all flight crew and cabin crew on Flight 3411 were not United employees, and according to the union, should not be blamed for what happened. Furthermore, they express their belief that the incident was entirely due to the "grossly inappropriate response by the Chicago Department of Aviation," and that all "social media ire" should be directed at them.

"Members of local airport law enforcement are normally important security partners who assist aircrews in ensuring the safety of everyone on the airplane," they wrote. "This event was an anomaly and is not how United or the police are expected to treat passengers when there is no security threat."

"As the story of United Express Flight 3411, operated by Republic Airline, continues to virally circulate in the news and on social media, your United Master Executive Council (MEC) has intentionally withheld judgment because of the rapid pace at which information, both accurate and inaccurate, has been released and manipulated.


“ The safety and well-being of our passengers is the highest priority for United pilots, and this should not have escalated into a violent encounter. United pilots are infuriated by this event. This occurred on one of our contracted Express carriers, separately owned and operated by Republic Airline, and was ultimately caused by the grossly inappropriate response by the Chicago Department of Aviation.

“ It is important to review these baseline facts:

“ 1. This violent incident should never have happened and was a result of gross excessive force by Chicago Department of Aviation personnel.

2. No United employees were involved in the physical altercation.

“ 3. Social media ire should properly be directed at the Chicago Aviation Department.

“ 4. This occurred on an Express flight operated by Republic Airline, as such, the flight crew and cabin crew of Flight 3411 are employees of Republic Airline, not United Airlines.

“ 5. United Airlines CEO Oscar Munoz has apologized for United Airlines, the actions of the Chicago Department of Aviation, and the actions of our Express partner, Republic Airline.

On April 9, 2017, United Express Flight 3411, operated by Republic, was preparing to depart Chicago O’Hare (ORD) to Louisville (SDF). Republic Airline made the decision to assign four of their crewmembers to deadhead on Flight 3411 within minutes of the scheduled departure. Although four passengers would have to be removed from this flight to accommodate the Republic crew, the goal was to get the other 70 passengers on their way to SDF and ensure a flight crew needed the next day would also be in place. By all reports, the Republic flight crew was courteous and calm throughout the event, and three passengers left the flight voluntarily for compensation. After repeatedly asking the fourth passenger to give up his seat to no avail, the gate agent requested the assistance of law enforcement.

For reasons unknown to us, instead of trained Chicago Police Department officers being dispatched to the scene, Chicago Department of Aviation personnel responded. At this point, without direction and outside the control of United Airlines or the Republic crew, the Chicago Department of Aviation forcibly removed the passenger.

“ Members of local airport law enforcement are normally important security partners who assist aircrews in ensuring the safety of everyone on the airplane. This event was an anomaly and is not how United or the police are expected to treat passengers when there is no security threat.

“ United pilots have always been the true leaders of this company, and our fellow employees count on us to continue to do what we do best - deliver a world class product and safely transport our passengers around the world. We cannot let this huge distraction affect our ability to do our jobs. We have successfully flown through more turbulent times, and we will weather this storm as well.

Ultimately, United must be measured by more than this one incident on a single United Express flight; this airline is comprised of more than 82,000 employees, including over 12,500 pilots, working every day to safely fly around the globe. For 91 years, United has earned the trust of millions of passengers, and we will continue earning their trust, despite the incident on this United Express flight. The United Airlines MEC is confident that the steps we are taking as a company will ensure this type of inexcusable event never happens again."

*************

"three passengers left the flight voluntarily for compensation"

I thought 3 passengers were ordered off of the plane. I don't think that was a voluntary leaving of the plane

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

quote:

Originally posted by Protein anchor:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffxjet:

quote:

Originally posted by Protein anchor:

quote:

Originally posted by erj_pilot:
WRONG Protein...

Minimum 10 hours of rest from the end of duty to the start of the next duty period with the stipulation that the crew has the opportunity for 8 hours of SLEEP.

It's irrelevant what is said from this point forward, as most are ready to play jury, judge, and executioner on this one. Have to run...Gotta don my brass knuckles for the next flight, as the passengers are boarding. LUCKILY no one has crossed us today, so we haven't had a beat down yet, but we have 2 more legs. I need my safe space with crayons and bubbles.

Ok. Understood. My plan still seems to be valid given my parameters. They could have driven. They would have had time to rest and sleep. 14 hours. Who monitors their sleep?

It's cool. I'm not interested in arguing. It's clear they fucked up.

My opinion can certainly be changes as far as the crew travel issue...just not the dragging off of an old man.

Your plan has zero merits, because you have not taken into account the time the crew was already on duty. The crew had just walked off a flight they had just worked and were told they needed to be in IIU because that crew was unavailable for whatever reason. Time off is only 1 clock we have to watch. We also have a fed.gov mandated time we can be on duty. And on duty means doing ANYTIHNG for the company. We are required to be on duty an hour before the flight to account for preflight and such, if you fly a 2 hour leg then sit for an hour and fly another 3 hour leg, plus post flight time you are already at 8 hours and have not really done much. There is NO way to accept a 4 hour drive from ORD to IIU and be legal. And I mean legal, the LAW states very clearly that no company may assign and no crewmember may accept an assignment that exceeds duty time limitations, it's a law. And very highly monitored. So number one, they could not drive and still be within legal ON duty limits and still get the amount of rest they would legally have to get.
2, even if they could accept the drive and over duty time assignment, once they bust duty time, they MUST be legally assigned "penalty rest". The FAA feels that if you are flying and a storm cause you to go over duty time, that is beyond anyones control so no biggie, HOWEVER, the crew MUST be assigned additional rest to compensate based on how far over their duty time they were exceeded.

So even if they could drive, which they are legally bound to reject, they would be over duty time and have to be assigned extra rest and would therefore miss their next assignment.

This thread is really disappointing in that the people who know the voluminous regulations and rules that must be applied are being systemically shouted down by people with opinions and some back seat travel time. There are a million nuances that we are trying to get across, but no one wants to hear it.

Good info. Thank you. I understand now why driving would have been a no go.

It actually really isn't. It is a whole lot of excuse making, that they don't think the unwashed masses will see through. It is the latest strike at desperation to attempt to explain away the unexplainable.

In many other industries, such as commercial river operations, and train crews, they travel by van to the swap off point. The fresh crew gets out of the van, and takes off in the train. The old crew gets in the van and drives usually several hours back to the hub. They don't whine and cry "OMG crew rest". You know why? They have a plan B. Their plan B doesn't involve assaulting people just because they can. THEMSTHERULES.

Other industries often and commonly travel by roadway to get to their swap out points. I live at a train hub, and people drive from longer to Louisville to Chicago to catch a train. I guess the difference is those guys are professionals. It just seems the airline industry has been a bully culture that hasn't had to worry about things like customers. They are able to bully people and hide behind the rules. I really think the hostility you see in this thread from airline personnel is fear. Fear that they are going to lose their power to be able to bully. The amount of spin by the employees here is evident. Much like the spin in the election, it is spin hard. And then spin some more when you think there has been enough. I.E.- there isn't one shred of evidence that "crew rest" would have affected these four employees. Not one iota. But facts aren't convenient for spin. I think the one pilot who actually posted that he was too good to drive, was probably being honest from the perspective of airline employees. "Crew Rest" is just the latest spin, and nothing more.

Sad.

Wow, I'm so glad that living next to a train depot has give you such extraordinary insight into the complex regulations of the commercial travel industry that you have it all worked out. I'll spell it out real slow for you, it's not a matter of their travel mode, pilots travel via cab,sedan,bus,train, plane and scooter all the time. It's part of our life. But every time we have to travel for company duties, the company is required to count that as "duty" time, an FAA defined term. And once that clock starts, you can't stop it, unless it's to put you in rest. The FAA has a definition called "transportation not local in nature. They define that as more than 30 minutes of travel time. When you assign a crew to transportation not local in nature you can not legally call that rest, it's a law. And it must be counted as duty time since that is defined by the FAA as "any operation performed at the request of the company". Therefore the crew could have driven to iiu if it could have fit within their legal duty day. Since they had just finished working a flight and were on their way home, they duty day was mostly used up, they utilize us to the max, and thus a 4.5 hr drive would have exceeded their duty so. So once they got to iiu, they would have been assigned a rest period, which would have included a penalty rest period because they busted their duty day and they would not be legal to do the next flight anyway. So driving was not a viable option.
Your ignoranace on this matter is quite astounding, your living next the train depot not withstanding, and the amount of vitriol hurled at the fellow pilots from people who know almost nothing about the subject matter is quite amazing.

quote:

Originally posted by mutedblade:

quote:

Originally posted by Fenris:

Looking back, I should have just stayed in my seat on the plane.

That's the problem with the pilots within this thread. They just don't understand the cascading effects it has on the travelers when we get bumped from a flight. Sure, it's all fine and dandy for the airline because they have solved their problem, but they have forgotten how much of a hassle it is to get in contact with the party waiting for you (the people picking you up may have had their own plans too, so now they have to re-prioritize), and reschedule your work or personal plans. Never mind the fact that I've already made it through the shit show that is the TSA lines and I will now need to get re-screened if I have to spend a night in a hotel.

The pilots here have no idea about how many other people (and businesses) are affected by just one person getting bumped from their flights, and from what I have seen in this thread, they just don't care. As a young soldier coming home on leave, my dad would drop what he was doing for an entire day just to sit in shitty Northern Virginia traffic to come pick me up from the airport. Had I not been on the flight I told him, he wouldn't have lost pay for just the day I was to be picked up, but also for the next day when I actually got to fly out. Once my ass is in a seat, its not coming out of it for anything short of the plane being on fire, as I typically do not cause problems that would get me dismissed from an aircraft, same as with Dr. Dao.

I hope that the small percentage of people that disagree that UAL has done anything wrong will open their eyes and see how us PAYING customers feel. You know, the people that actually buy their service in hopes that we don't get beaten into compliance with unreasonable (and irresponsible) business practices.

This is just too much. To think a pilot doesn't know the effects of bumping. We get bumped from flights with regularity, like every week. I have friend who check flight loads 2 days before they have to go work because they know they will get bumped if a flight looks to full. I have been bumped from 5 flights in one day, from 12-midnight where I finally called it a day and went to the hotel and came back at 6 am to try again. Getting bumped and missing important family events is a normal part of our lives, we deal with it and move on. And usually it's after we've boarded that a last minute passenger needs a seat and off we go. My wife has been bumped after boarding, my friends and their kids have been bumped after boardig everyone I know has been deplaned after boarding at one time or another, so don't preach to us about not knowing what it feels like. Just last week my friend tried to get home to Dallas from Orlando. He made it to atl and then everything was sold out, after several bumpings he went to Houston, and then since everything there was sold out as well, he rented a one way car to get his kids home for school the next day. So for you to say we have no idea, is really just, for lack of a better word ignorant.

If you think that one person getting bumped cascades through his life, imagine what it would have been like for that flight in iiu, a plane full of 150 people who have no crew now because of one person. I wonder what 150 people's cascading lives look like. Not to mention the delayed flight and all it's cascading problems for the future flights on that plane and all those 150 people each time. That plane probably had a least 5 flights that day, maybe more. That's 750 who now have cascading problems. Did anyone think about that?

Small side note, I'm at the gate airlining home on United and they are oversold by one person and no one is volunteering yet. Wonder how this will play out.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffxjet:
Edited for brevity.

LOL that was good. When you see that much sarcasm, you know it has to be spin.

Yet, no actual evidence has been provided to the unwashed masses that driving would have tampered with the precious "crew rest". Even one pilot here has spoken the truth, they are not paid to drive. Too good or otherwise.

Any excuse is better than none, I guess.

You guys do realize that all you are doing is digging a deeper hole with the public that is your customer base, right?

Wow, a cop accusing others of hiding behind the rules. I thought cops were on the side of enforcing the rules.

quote:

Originally posted by Keystoner:
Wow, a cop accusing others of hiding behind the rules. I thought cops were on the side of enforcing the rules.

Just because you can, doesn't always mean you should.

Policing 101.

Speaking of which, if you'll go back to my first post in this thread, you'll see at no time did I agree with what the police did. They screwed up. When people, cops included, do wrong, you have to have the good sense to be able to stand up and say so. The difference is being able to use common sense and good judgement. RULES don't give you a sword and magic helmet.

This thought process is pretty widespread in policing. When people screw up, you have to own it. Just because you can, does not equal you should. It doesn't lead to anarchy. it is thinking about the after effects of what you do.