SIGforum.com Main Page The Lounge My daughter made a point regarding pro-masks people/policies that I hadn't
Main Page The Lounge My daughter made a point regarding pro-masks people/policies that I hadn'tGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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I am not attacking religion at all. As I said in another post, I couldn’t care less whether you go to church or not. A previous poster said that Covid sources couldn’t be trusted because of the money involved. One of those posters then mentioned going to church. I am trying to find out what the criteria is for believing what is true and what is BS when there is money involved. And there is certainly big money involved in organized religions. | |||
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| Thank you Very little  |
Generally in these threads they use or change a topic to elicit more response, there never was any interest other than stirring the pot, a seagull post... | |||
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| Little ray of sunshine  |
I don't know what you mean by this, but I do not, of course, believe that Target can shoot you, or require you to trade your first born child as a slave for the privilege of shopping there. They can, to bring this to back to the topic of this thread, require you to wear a mask. They could require you to show a COVID vaccination card. They could require you to wear a red tee shirt, and say "Down with Wal Mart" as you enter. They could require many things of you as the owners of their property. The fish is mute, expressionless. The fish doesn't think because the fish knows everything. | |||
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Regarding property rights and mask requirements, It may be helpful for those on both sides of this issue to go to Wikipedia and review “suspect classification”. It has been many decades since I graduated from law school, and I never practiced law, so I have forgotten quite a bit. So, if there are practicing lawyers who say that I am off base here, or even full of $#!+, just let me know and I will learn along with everyone else. Wikipedia defines a suspect classification as: In United States constitutional law, a suspect classification is a class or group of persons meeting a series of criteria suggesting they are likely the subject of discrimination. These classes receive closer scrutiny by courts when an Equal Protection claim alleging unconstitutional discrimination is asserted against a law, regulation, or other government action, or sometimes private action. When a law or government action affects a group that falls under a "suspect classification," courts apply the strict scrutiny standard in reviewing the constitutional validity of a law or action. So, it would seem to me that whether or not someone could be refused service in a store, for example, for not wearing a mask, would depend on whether they would be considered a part of a suspect class. I don’t know if there are any cases on the subject, or if it is even the right analysis to use. Any lawyers care to chime in? | |||
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safe & sound |
Because it's against the law (in most places). That's the different between private property open to the public, and private property that is not. You can be as topless as you'd like inside your own home, but can't do that at Walmart, even if they give you permission to do so.
First, because many of these policies are the result of the government forcing the businesses to make them. And what do you do when every business does this, where you have no other options? Can't go grocery shopping? Can't travel? Can't bank? You ok with that? You must jump through nonsense hoops to be able to live your life? Second, because many businesses were having people arrested and trespassed for keeping their faces covered prior to this, and now all of a sudden demanding people cover their face. Which is it? Many businesses ban guns on their premises as well, and most of us ignore it. I tend to do the same with masks. I've never had the flu. I've never had Covid. I've never worn a mask. | |||
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Still finding my way |
People aren't actually bothered by you not wearing a mask. If it was such a big deal they'd just stay away from you. They are bothered that you're disobedient. They are bothered that your free choices shines a light on their weakness. | |||
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blame canada |
In the example of Target, or perhaps Walmart is an even better example....with the existence of public restrooms, public water fountains, public bulletin boards for posting community information, and even financial institutions and coffee shops inside the stores, does this begin to render these large stores as "Quasi-Public Places" as in Marsh v. Alabama? Just posing the question....I understand that recent cases (like cake bakers) have severely hindered a businesses' right to refuse a customer. With all these considerations, do we think the legal ground for denying entry to non-vaccinated people or people who choose not to hinder their health with a worthless mask, is there solid ground for that anymore? Of course, our confidence in courts doing logical and legal things is eroding, and we all know now that with the Chauvin case in recent memory, decisions in court are far more influenced by public opinion and media propaganda than actual facts and precedence. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "The trouble with our Liberal friends...is not that they're ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't so." Ronald Reagan, 1964 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Arguing with some people is like playing chess with a pigeon. It doesn't matter how good I am at chess, the pigeon will just take a shit on the board, strut around knocking over all the pieces and act like it won.. and in some cases it will insult you at the same time." DevlDogs55, 2014  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ www.rikrlandvs.com | |||
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Bingo | |||
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Tinker Sailor Soldier Pie |
Do you really believe that? What is the extent of that then (in regards to otherwise legal activities)? Cause now we're getting to the meat of it. To what extent can a corporation require of you in order to do business with them? Or is it limitless, as long as it's obviously not like the extreme examples you gave (clearly illegal acts)? For the record, I disagree with what you're saying. As far as the baker, the fact that I believe that the baker has every right to refuse to bake a certain type of cake for a customer does not at all contradict my belief that corporations that require vaccine passports in order to enter their property or fly on their planes is wrong. Furthermore, I believe they should be prevented from carrying out such discriminatory policies even if that means the government being the one stopping them. The baker was not refusing to allow the customer to purchase a cake from his store. He was not refusing to bake a cake for him. He was not refusing to bake a cake for him because that customer was gay. He was refusing to bake a cake for him that forced him to use his artistic skills in a way that violated his religious and moral beliefs. Forcing the baker to do that is wrong. Just like it would be wrong for a store like Hobby Lobby to be forced to sell satan worshipping craft sets just because some satanic sect demands it. My position of the baker refusing to bake a cake is not at all at odds with my position with airlines or other corporations being prevented from requiring vaccine passports of their customers. ~Alan Acta Non Verba NRA Life Member (Patron) God, Family, Guns, Country Men will fight and die to protect women... because women protect everything else. ~Andrew Klavan "Once there was only dark. If you ask me, light is winning." ~Rust Cohle | |||
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| Little ray of sunshine |
One problem with that analysis is that most of the "public accomodations" stuff is predicated on application to a group of people who have some protection under the equal protection clauses of the 14th Amendment, like black people, who were the intended beneficiaries of the post war amendements. (Even that generated a LOT of controversy when it the cases came out that applied that to private property, like bars and hotels.) Mask wearing or not-wearing is not thought to be such a protected group. So no one would claim Target can't require you to wear a mask. Likewise, tee shirt colors aren't protected by the equal protection clause in my silly example either. Now, I have many objections to how the equal protection clause has been applied, especially when it has been used to created new, substantive rights or protections. But despite my objections that ship mostly sailed back in the days of the Civil Rights acts. We now see further attempts to expand equal protection clause applicability (such as to bakers of gay cakes), and generally we conservatives don't like that. We shouldn't like it any better when we want to create a protected class (like mask not-wearers) just because it is one we favor. This erodes other, more important rights. And ones that are actually explicit in the constitution and bill of rights. The fish is mute, expressionless. The fish doesn't think because the fish knows everything. | |||
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| Little ray of sunshine |
If you believe that, you will be taking a giant step toward limiting the rights you have to control your own property. There is really no difference between your living room and the inside of the Target store. Would it matter to you if it wasn't Target, but Joe's Barbershop (not incorporated) down on the corner? The fish is mute, expressionless. The fish doesn't think because the fish knows everything. | |||
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| Tinker Sailor Soldier Pie |
Not at all.
That's quite absurd. And now it's beginning to dawn on me the position from which you're coming from (private property rights). You know, you being a Texan and all 
Yes, in fact, it would. Because when you start getting to these much larger corporations, they have a great deal of power that sometimes even extends beyond government, and these restrictions that they might impose really do start to limit how a person conducts his life, like how he communicates or how he travels or how he conducts commerce. Given too much power, these corporations WILL set aside a large class of people and move them to the outskirts of "normal" life, and just because those people's right to live freely amongst everyone else is being trodden on by a business rather than a government, doesn't make it any less wrong. So yes, if this situation were simply involving a couple of small private shops, I'd likely be agreeing with you. But my concern goes way beyond that. ~Alan Acta Non Verba NRA Life Member (Patron) God, Family, Guns, Country Men will fight and die to protect women... because women protect everything else. ~Andrew Klavan "Once there was only dark. If you ask me, light is winning." ~Rust Cohle | |||
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| blame canada |
Thank you. I appreciate your educated and experienced insight. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "The trouble with our Liberal friends...is not that they're ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't so." Ronald Reagan, 1964 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Arguing with some people is like playing chess with a pigeon. It doesn't matter how good I am at chess, the pigeon will just take a shit on the board, strut around knocking over all the pieces and act like it won.. and in some cases it will insult you at the same time." DevlDogs55, 2014 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ www.rikrlandvs.com | |||
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| Made from a different mold  |
There is certainly a difference. Try coming into my living room during Target's business hours....see what that gets you  ___________________________ No thanks, I've already got a penguin. | |||
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| Made from a different mold |
All those others carry a pistol on their hip to protect me from some thug right? This has never been about "protecting others" or cutting the risk for others. Those same people spouting off all that nonsensical bullshit are the same that will claim they cannot be forced to carry a firearm because it's antithetical to their beliefs. Give me a fucking break guy. I am no more responsible for you and yours than you are for me and mine. You're vaccinated. Be happy, move on. The vaccine works, so no worries Right? Let the rest of us non-maskers go about our miserable existence and hastening of our deaths. Simple Darwinism should sort us out quick enough I am sure Can't be too much longer, I mean, we're already a year into it, so it's gotta happen soon....maybe....  ___________________________ No thanks, I've already got a penguin. | |||
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I don't trust people who cover their face. "Ninja kick the damn rabbit" | |||
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True story. I'm small in stature. The other day I went into the liquor store which is clearly signed "Masks Required No Mask No Service". I walked in mask less as I usually do. Met a rather large gentleman in the aisle with a mask trying to cover his large beard and face. I could tell just by reading his eyes he felt embarrassed. Five minutes later he was standing at the checkout without his mask. "Fixed fortifications are monuments to mans stupidity" - George S. Patton | |||
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Ever gone skiing  Sorry, I couldn't resist. | |||
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Needless deaths? What do you have to say about the suicides brought on by depression by not being able to run you're business and provide for yourself and family. Needless deaths by elderly and not so elderly not getting diagnosed for serious health problems because they are terrified to leave their homes much less go to a medical clinic. More violent crime. More teenage suicide from lock downs and cut off from society. Alcoholism on the rise, domestic abuse, child abuse all on the rise. All of these are not reported by the main stream media and the numbers that are shown they outpace the numbers of Covid deaths which are proven and admitted by even Fauci are embellished. At what cost do we bow down to this Covid that has 99% survival rate? Yeah Americans have disdain all right. They have disdain of having their boots pissed on and told by politicians and medical bureaucrats that it's raining out. Americans have disdain for people who think they have the right to shame them for guarding their freedoms from people who roll over and put their peckers in the dirt when told to do so by those same bureaucrats. Most Americans are not good at group think. It's how we survived as a country this long and will continue to do so. "Fixed fortifications are monuments to mans stupidity" - George S. Patton | |||
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Do you have a citation for this assertion? The latest articles that I have read, including articles in Forbes and the Wall Street Journal, say that Covid deaths have, in all likelihood, been UNDERreported. Many people die in nursing homes without getting a Covid test. | |||
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SIGforum.com Main Page The Lounge My daughter made a point regarding pro-masks people/policies that I hadn't
Main Page The Lounge My daughter made a point regarding pro-masks people/policies that I hadn't© SIGforum 2024