quote:

But maybe I'm wrong? Maybe my entire education was a waste and Liveleak or Infowars has all the good info?

Setting aside issues of historical legitimacy, I like to think of Israel like I think of the United States...culturally similar in many respects, both peoples willing to use violence when necessary to achieve goals. Also, both peoples have done outstanding things with their lands. Say what you will about Israel or the Jews, they are extremely good at developing what they have...people, land, agriculture, technology...all terrific. Just like America and Britain.

These threads always seem to smoke out the antisemites...a good thing.

And all the people of European and African descent need to leave Australia and North and South America because their ancestors weren’t the first ones in those areas.

A show of hands: Who’s leaving first?

Proof that religion has started more wars and caused more deaths that anything except natural causes.

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
Proof that religion has started more wars and caused more deaths that anything except natural causes.

Virtually all human societies have had religion. And we are all familliar with the shortcomings of humans and human societies.
But what would a society be like with NO religion? Would it be based on "rationality" and lead to a more peaceful society?

There is no need to speculate about this. Within the last century we have, for the first time in recorded human history, nations that were ruled by a specifically atheist philosophy. They were not only officially atheist, but actively suppressed any religion.
The results were the three greatest genocides in human history:
Maoist China: ~ 20 million
Stalinist Russia: ~ 20 million,
and Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge: ~ 12 million.
(The Nazi holocaust is "small" in comparison)

These regimes all believed they were using "reason" to establish a better society, and that it was "justified" to eliminate "reactionaries".

So, without going into the details of any particular religion, I would contend that the evidence is that religion IMPERFECTLY curbs man's baser instincts; but when religion is completely removed, (or at least that is the attempt) the result is that the human mind can rationalize just about anything.

Even the Nazi Holocaust, which is actually "small" by comparison (~6 million or so) was based on the "science" of eugenics, and it was well "reasoned" that eliminating defective human genes would be a "good" thing.

There are those who claim they can be "moral" without religion. But exactly what morality would they adhere to ? There have been other "moralities", such as the warrior "to the victor go the spoils" morality of the Vikings; the "might makes right" morality of Romans, the supreme, unquestioned power of Mayan priests, etc. I suspect that some people underestimate the ethic-shaping power of having been immersed in a judeo-christian culture for 5+ (or at least 2) millenia, so that even what seems to be a rational "ethic" is really strongly influenced by judeo-christian religious beliefs.

Even a Confucian "Do unto others..." ethic is only "rational" if you are FIRST motivated to accept its rationality based on feelings of empathy. One could just as easily say that "Do unto others BEFORE they do unto you" is even more "logical" from a survival standpoint.

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Yarchin:
These threads always seem to smoke out the antisemites...a good thing.

No kidding. Several have showed their asses.

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
Proof that religion has started more wars and caused more deaths that anything except natural causes.

Islam is guilty as charged, it was founded in that basis. After that, your argument doesn't hold up well.

quote:

Originally posted by jhe888:

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Yarchin:
These threads always seem to smoke out the antisemites...a good thing.

No kidding. Several have showed their asses.

Hopefully they will be shown the door.



.

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
Proof that religion has started more wars and caused more deaths that anything except natural causes.

WTH are you even talking about...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...er_communist_regimes

Communism alone has probably killed more people than there were humans in existence before Rome was built.

(Maybe not, but it's a fuck ton of deaths and you know it.)

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
Proof that religion has started more wars and caused more deaths that anything except natural causes.

Absolute bull.

quote:

Originally posted by spexet:...
This is an area where I think a lot of people have problems...the notion of a special, chosen people who have some kind of instantaneous claim on God's blessing. How many "Jews" of today actually have a genuine biological bloodline going back to Abram (Abraham)? It is argued that many of the current sects of Judaism might be some sort of spiritual progeny, but they are no more descendants of Abraham than any other average person.

When thinking about this question, keep in mind that this alleged family relationship is the basis for many worldly issues. The United States and the United Kingdom (Britain) put modern day Israel on the map. Do the Jews really have a valid claim on Palestine? Or, are they really just a crafty, resilient people who are fantastic at playing the sympathy card?

It's good food for thought, that's for sure.

First, the "chosen" bit. You and those who believe the way you frame the thought, are flat wrong.

Not "chosen" as in "favorite". "Chosen" as in least "called out to be made an exampls of".

God's selection of the Jewish people was a matter of taking "the most unlikely to suceed" under their own ability and then "forming" them into a people that would need His constant invollvemnt in order to prosper, survive, thrive and be the "light" unto the world.

And in so, we have a choice to "choose" Him, back.

Much like a marriage/partnership.

We have our place, and are "workers" as well as "benifactors" in this partnership.

It does not make us better than anyone else, and in fact, makes us more accountable and under scrutiny than others.

Yes, there are many who do have an elitist attitude, but we were told this would be the case and warned repeatedly to resist such thought and deed.

We were also told that there would be those who would mingle with us, who were a bad influence and to be mindful of it. (Those who mixed in and came out of Egypt, and others throughout history).

The Jewish people have isolated themselves by culture, religious practice and such things, mainly to focus on the observance and ritual we are commnded to follow.

But, we are not to be haughty about such a separation.

Think about it as a medical team avoiding those who are not sanitized, in order to be properly fit for surgury. No better than anyone else, but needful to be separate, for the sake of others, not themselves.

Yet, someone trying to enter into the proximity might be turned away and offended because of a lack of understanding, when no offense was givein or intended.

The Jews today are the Jews of yesterday. All the bullshit about the Jews in the world, and the Jews in Israel being some posers is simply a boatload of crap, and I will not argue about it.

The Jewish people have been preserved by God, and no matter what one believes, it cannot be explained that for thousands of years, and the conquest, enslavement, scattering and whatnot, the Jewish people, even in the diaspora, have been "kept" and when re-united, find the same ritual, custom, language and many other facets in harmony.

And at the same time, almost any other people have a family broken have no identity in one or two generations with those of that family.

And the issue of the land.

First, it has been in possession for 4000 years.
Abraham first set foot, and even though the Israelite's went to Egypt during famine, were enslaved for 400 years, and returned, as well as the Babylonian and Persian exiles/enslavement, the loss of the ten tribes, the combining of the tribes of Benjamin and Judah, and the scattering by Rome 2000 years ago, there was always a Jewish presence in the land.

Now, imagine your family owns a farm. And for several generations, calamity, war, strife result in most of the people being forced from the farm, but one or two remain. And during a long span of time these one or two find others coming and taking up residence, not unfriendly, and even helping to "keep the farm", yet not becoming part of the family, and in later years, the decendants of that familiy start returning, some paying the "others" to leave, and some of the "others" remaining. But over time, the "others" having been born on the farm begin to think that they have "ownership", yet they are not on the deed, and have no right to the property.

Certainly there would be trouble.

But the fact remains, the land is not theirs.

Now, all of this is based on the belief that the land is "God's" and "deeded" to the Jewish people, and if one does not believe this, then as is well understood by most here; "Come and take it."

And we hold it, believing that we have the deed, and will not relinquish it.

If it brings the entire world to our doorstep to fight for it, the world will either prevail against us, or find a shitstorm.

But it will not change our minds, nor hearts.

There is no simple or "short" way to lay out all the things that are salient or germane to this issue, in such a venue as this forum, and certainly not this thread, or a single post.

In no way is my post an effort to persuade any who have bias, prejudice or whatnot. I have the Honeybadger attitude. I really don't give a shit. But to those who are not full of hate, and looking for insight.


We want to get along and see the world in a better place.
But you can bet the Jews will not go quietly to their destruction, and will resist any attempts.

(and not all my chaverim agree with me)

Excellent post, Crom. Especially the morality part.

quote:

Originally posted by spexet:

quote:

The Jews were the people God raised up to himself. The ones to whom God revealed himself. The ones to whom he made promises, and the ones with whom he made covenants. It was the Jews who received the law. It was the people to whom God sent the prophets, or who were selected as prophets. It was the Jews that produced the Christ. It was the Jews that were to spread the knowledge of the Father and his son Christ to the rest of the earth. And it was the Jews that rejected their Messiah.

This is an area where I think a lot of people have problems...the notion of a special, chosen people who have some kind of instantaneous claim on God's blessing. How many "Jews" of today actually have a genuine biological bloodline going back to Abram (Abraham)? It is argued that many of the current sects of Judaism might be some sort of spiritual progeny, but they are no more descendants of Abraham than any other average person.

When thinking about this question, keep in mind that this alleged family relationship is the basis for many worldly issues. The United States and the United Kingdom (Britain) put modern day Israel on the map. Do the Jews really have a valid claim on Palestine? Or, are they really just a crafty, resilient people who are fantastic at playing the sympathy card?

It's good food for thought, that's for sure.

""DNA Links Prove Jews Are a 'Race,' Says Genetics Expert""
https://www.haaretz.com/jewish...ics-expert-1.5220113

quote:

Not "chosen" as in "favorite". "Chosen" as in least "called out to be made an examples of".

And in so, we have a choice to "choose" Him, back.

Thank you, sigmonkey.
And I think Christians, too, as heirs to the God of Abraham as well, are called upon to "choose" Him back. We don't always choose to do so.... but when we fail we still try to get up and try again.

quote:

Originally posted by sigmonkey:
... be the "light" unto the world....

Amen. That was God's intent.

quote:

....First, it has been in possession for 4000 years.
Abraham first set foot, and even though the Israelite's went to Egypt during famine, were enslaved for 400 years, and returned, as well as the Babylonian and Persian exiles/enslavement, the loss of the ten tribes, the combining of the tribes of Benjamin and Judah, and the scattering by Rome 2000 years ago, there was always a Jewish presence in the land....

Yes, indeed.

The Arab/Islam claim over this land is done from envy, rooted in the desire of Ishmael's offspring to claim Isaac's birthright. If the Jewish people were to suddenly pack up and leave Israel, choosing instead to claim, say for instance a large tract of uninhabited arid land offered by Australia, the Muslims would find a reason to come after that land too. It isn't about the land.



.

quote:

But the fact remains, the land is not theirs.

Now, all of this is based on the belief that the land is "God's" and "deeded" to the Jewish people, and if one does not believe this, then as is well understood by most here; "Come and take it."

And we hold it, believing that we have the deed, and will not relinquish it.

If it brings the entire world to our doorstep to fight for it, the world will either prevail against us, or find a shitstorm.

But it will not change our minds, nor hearts.

Personally, I'm JAFO. However, I would kindly suggest that your entire posting gives a rather succinct answer to the question posed by the OP. Justifying land possession, thinking of others as "unsanitized", and dismissal of alternate ideas as a "boatload of crap" not worth argument.

Don't get me wrong...there are other places in the world where the very same things happen, and to be blunt are probably very well justified given the circumstances. But they don't claim being chosen by God as reason for their actions or their attitude.

quote:

Originally posted by spexet:

quote:

But the fact remains, the land is not theirs.

Now, all of this is based on the belief that the land is "God's" and "deeded" to the Jewish people, and if one does not believe this, then as is well understood by most here; "Come and take it."

And we hold it, believing that we have the deed, and will not relinquish it.

If it brings the entire world to our doorstep to fight for it, the world will either prevail against us, or find a shitstorm.

But it will not change our minds, nor hearts.

Personally, I'm JAFO. However, I would kindly suggest that your entire posting gives a rather succinct answer to the question posed by the OP. Justifying land possession, thinking of others as "unsanitized", and dismissal of alternate ideas as a "boatload of crap" not worth argument.

Don't get me wrong...there are other places in the world where the very same things happen, and to be blunt are probably very well justified given the circumstances. But they don't claim being chosen by God as reason for their actions or their attitude.

Uninitialized in the context is not anything nor anywhere an insult, it is a matter of fact in the example I used.

In the context of the example, it does not mean, nor imply anything other than not fit for the surgical theater. It does not imply nor intend to convey a manner of "dirtiness".

That exists as a fiction in your mind.

Yes. The "alternate idea" that the Jews in the world today are not direct descendants of Abraham with blood lineage is a boatload of crap.

If my post is all that is required for the World to hate Jews, you have a greater problem than you realize.

Those snakes existed in your head long before I posted.

OK, to go tap dancing on minefields...

A) Historically, if you go around telling people you're the chosen ones, people get irritated with you.

(Talk to women who live near Orthodox Jews sometime, about what they're like as neighbors.)

B) Some of them really do see non-Jews as lesser beings.

C) Israelis, who've left Israel, have often done so for a reason. As such, they tend to continue to be the type of people who get run out of places.

D) To say there isn't a Jewish race, is bizarre. You can be genetically Jewish. You cannot be genetically Lutheran.

E) Christians are definitely second-class citizens in Israel.

quote:

Originally posted by Aglifter:

E) Christians are definitely second-class citizens in Israel.

How so?