quote:

Originally posted by WaterburyBob:
I'm sure it's just from my lack of practice, but I find picking up the dot with a handgun much slower than acquiring a sight picture with iron sights.

This is where I'm at right now. Earlier this year, I bought a G17 Gen 5 MOS to replace my G19 Gen 3 as my H.D. pistol. I installed a Holosun 507c on it and it was a fun range tool; after some time, it became an obvious advantage at longer distances. But target acquisition was still slower for me than irons, and that is standing in a perfect stance with a perfect grip. At 7-10 yards, it was no contest- overall I did much better with iron sights as far as speed coupled with accuracy.

I eventually removed the red dot, replaced the cover plate, and became happier with the G17 without. I will likely revisit the micro red dot world, but right now, I'm happy with just iron sights and a WML for home defense. Longer distances = outdoors, I'll grab a rifle instead.

I'm starting to rethink RDS for SD assuming irons are still preferred for < 10 yards and that's the probable sweetspot.


But how about RDS for the 20 in the woods? 10 yards is a little too close for comfort Having some better precision out to 25+ yards may be good. Unrealistic? Irons still good enough? Or RDS a good consideration?

Only you can answer that question. You're going to have to get one, practice with it, and compare your results to similar scenarios with irons...then decide if the benefits outweigh the drawbacks.

Me, I'm not there yet. I have about 1000 rounds through mine, and I'm nowhere close to wanting to carry it. Like I explained in my post back on page 1, I'm seeing benefits under certain ideal conditions, but there are enough hang-ups to make it unviable for carry. I may never get there...and I'm ok with that. I like irons...I shoot pretty well with them, and they work every time. But working with the dot is stretching me, and I'm enjoying the exercise.

I know there are others here who are much better shooters than me who have come to different conclusions, and that's ok. I'm glad it's working for a lot of folks. But I think the only way for you to know for sure how it will work for YOU is to buy one and put in some time on it. Unfortunately, it's expensive...but borrowing one for a few rounds or a range session isn't going to be enough to get you where you need to be.

quote:

Originally posted by konata88:
I'm starting to rethink RDS for SD assuming irons are still preferred for < 10 yards and that's the probable sweetspot.


But how about RDS for the 20 in the woods? 10 yards is a little too close for comfort Having some better precision out to 25+ yards may be good. Unrealistic? Irons still good enough? Or RDS a good consideration?

If you are having this many internal conversations, iron sights are for you.

I prefer a RMR at 2 yards and at 200. I can’t imagine going back to irons for self defense.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

I prefer a RMR at 2 yards and at 200. I can’t imagine going back to irons for self defense.

Not challenging, just curious. Why do you prefer RMR from 2 yards? 200 yards is easy to understand (in fact, for me, 20+ is understandable). But why 2+ yards especially since you're an accomplished shooter? What am I not considering?

Is it related to target focus?

It’s all about the ability to target focus. Most comparisons are done under perfect conditions. Add in levels of complexity, and the results become clear.

I keep getting feedback that I'm not focusing on the sights, that I keep peeking over the sights to see where the shot landed, etc. Maybe I should just give up and be more target focused - RDS would fit right in for me

I probably don't have the skills for additional levels of complexity; I can't even imagine what they are. $900 (slide, slide kit, sight, tool) is a hunk of change. Basically 2 19s. But if it makes a difference in a bad situation, money well spent.

I guess regardless, I should give it a shot (so to speak). Coming from you, it's beyond just preference but unimaginable going back to irons. That's a pretty hefty endorsement.

Okay, back to waiting for parts to be back in stock without having to buy from a half dozen different vendors (and paying lots of shipping).

quote:

Originally posted by konata88:
I keep getting feedback that I'm not focusing on the sights, that I keep peeking over the sights to see where the shot landed, etc. Maybe I should just give up and be more target focused - RDS would fit right in for me

If you had mentioned it the last time we went out, I would have been able to elaborate on the use of sights and how using a Red Dot would affect your shooting.

I think you'd really benefit from having a red dot on your slide; even at closer distances. It would address your issues seeing the sights and your target, but you'd still need to stay in the process of managing the trigger. A red dot might even help with that management if you could learn not to wait for it to stabilize.

I have a friend who has used most of the popular red dots on the market and he has pretty much settled on the SR for his competition gun. For competition the larger window, and it's shape difference, outweighs the fact that it isn't meant for duty

I'm having a Holosun HE507C-GR-V2 mounted on my P320 Carry...because the reticle is easier for me to pickup during presentation

This message has been edited. Last edited by: 9mmepiphany,

The Shield RMS mini sight looks promising. I traded in a couple of well-used 250's towards a 320 RXP compact with a Romeo 5 Pro already mounted. It shoots to point of aim and the sights were co-witnessed (maybe a luck break, who knows?). At any rate, I avoided all the hassle by getting it already set up, and when you total out the mods it would require to an existing pistol, it actually saved some bucks.

I can comfortably say that the best way to get over the learning curve with a RDS is to start with a huge amount of humility. It took a little bit of of practice to understand the slight differences in technique and a realization that you can’t mask technical deficiencies on a dot like you can on irons. If you’re hunting the dot at 2 yards or 200 yards there is something else going on or you’re doing it wrong. For me, once I realized that my target was the front sight, meaning there was no transition from target to front sight as done on irons, it all started to click. When the dot didn’t appear, it was most likely a poor grip, draw, or presentation. To further complicate matters for me is cross dominant eye/handedness while shooting. Having my head positioned correctly on my presentation is critical to success with a RDS. If ammo was more available I would be completely transitioned to RDS on my defensive pistols. I continue to practice dry fire presentation drills and I am building muscle memory, but not quite comfortable enough to say that adding the stress of a real life situation wouldn’t make everything fall to crap. I truly believe I will be there in short order with a little more live fire practice.

Still looking for parts in stock.

Question: should i get a slide with cutouts around the barrel (ie - brownell's slide w/ window)? or regular slide w/ just the rmr cutout?

On one hand, the barrel window may help compensate for the extra weight of the rmr. Maybe ensure better / normal recoil action for more reliable cycling.

On the other hand, worried about dust and junk getting into the slide / barrel / locking block area affecting function. Assume this will be for defensive use, not just for range or competition.

I wouldn't want any ports and cutouts to allow more dust and lint to accumulate like you said.

Keep in mind, the milling/space for the RDS has steel taken away that makes it already a little bit lighter in itself.

Have you ever thought about sending in your factory slide for milling?

quote:

Originally posted by konata88:
Still looking for parts in stock.

Question: should i get a slide with cutouts around the barrel (ie - brownell's slide w/ window)? or regular slide w/ just the rmr cutout?

On one hand, the barrel window may help compensate for the extra weight of the rmr. Maybe ensure better / normal recoil action for more reliable cycling.

On the other hand, worried about dust and junk getting into the slide / barrel / locking block area affecting function. Assume this will be for defensive use, not just for range or competition.

It shouldn't make a difference either way.

Keep in mind that for years the 34/35 has lightening cuts in the slide. Although not as common in law enforcement as the 17/22, they weren't unheard of. I have never heard a single anecdotal tale about it causing reliability issues.

As far as not lightening the slide, there are likely hundreds of thousands of guns out there with slide mounted optics, most of which are without lightened slides, and I can't say I've read anything suggesting widespread problems. I have not seen them with my 9 or 10 optics guns, none of which have lightening cuts.

And then there's always the fact that factory optics cut guns don't have the slides lightened as a general rule.

I think you're overthinking some of this.

I do tend to overthink. I'm concerned about dust / sand getting into the port and causing issues. More sand than lint / dust. It's sandy out here - one drop or scuffle and sand is very likely. But even so, what's the risk to function?

On the other hand, while I know optics have been in use for a long time across many, many people, I don't know what they do to tune and during use, if anything. Especially for competition, one can tune reloads and recoil spring to compensate for optics and slide weight. One can make it such that there is no issue but I don't know if that is possible with stock factory parts.

That being said, the rmr seems to be only 1.2oz which is pretty light, may be negligible to a slide that's in the 12oz (19) to 17oz (20) ballpark. Just change out the RSA earlier if needed.

Thanks for the inputs. I'll ponder some more. Cutouts seem fairly common and expensive - seems like there shouldn't be practical issues otherwise people wouldn't buy them, right? Unless they know some tuning is needed and accept that; if no tuning needed, all the better.

Oh, one thing caught my eye, DaBigBR: you mention you're not aware of 'widespread' problems but how about localized issues? You've heard of issues here and there about one or the other slide type?

ETA: after some research and anecdotes, I'm going to stay with basic slide, not windows. Seems like any slide weight differences from stock are minimal and no functional issues with RMR mounted. So, in the absence of a clear benefit of the window, I'm sticking with 'stock'

This message has been edited. Last edited by: konata88,

That’s my major question, how useable are they in hard rain, or being moved through snow?

Rain X - no problem.

quote:

Originally posted by Voshterkoff:
That’s my major question, how useable are they in hard rain, or being moved through snow?

Depends. If you're a concealed career drawing a gun for an unpleasant reason, no problem. If you're carrying OWB in an open holster, I had two open emitter RDS guns sidelined within 2 hours of a nonstop drizzle during a competition class. In matches you can cover your gun between stages, non-stop training - not so much. Optic windows can be wiped off but once moisture gets on emitter, you're done. Serious use RDS guns must have backup irons, and I personally plan on changing to closed emitter sights at least on some of my Glocks.

quote:

Originally posted by YVK:

Serious use RDS guns must have backup irons, and I personally plan on changing to closed emitter sights at least on some of my Glocks.

Like what? The only brand I know that offers is Aimpoint but the Acro seems to suffer from battery life issues.

Are there other tier 1 options? Or just wait for Acro V2?

two open emitter RDS guns sidelined
what brand?

Good question. I assumed trijicon. If not trijicon AND trijicon is less susceptible then perhaps they are still on the table.