quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

quote:

Originally posted by RichardC:
Some reading:



https://sigforum.com/eve/forums...0601935/m/6410095474

One of these days, I’ll tell a really funny story about that thread.

Go ahead. Be easy on me.

Decisions decisions..... still torn between rmr and acro. i like the h1/t1. but like that rmr offers different dot sizes; acro am stuck with single dot size (which is probably okay).

Acro: limited (no) alternatives, shorter battery life, larger/heavier but possibly less susceptible to dirt when needed.

RMR: different models available (which may not be necessary other than dot size), smaller/lighter with 4x battery life. But may need regular cleaning for function (and what if I don't have a q-tip handy when critically needed?).

Function taking priority, I'm leaning toward Acro. But still waffling.

Since that thread I started a few months ago, I've got roughly two boxes and a handful (120 rounds or so), maybe a little more, of 115gr FMJ ammo through that G17 Gen 5 with the RMR. I'd have shot it more by now but ammo, well...

The gun is accurate enough, no issues there. I never fired it before I put the RMR on it, and decided to use the iron sights to get on target, then adjust the dot to correspond to the sights. That worked well enough. So, accuracy is fine and I haven't had any reliability issues in that small amount of rounds.

I'm glad I went with the 9 moa dot. That dot is almost exactly the same size as the white dot on the front sight. It's big enough for my eyes to easily see. And being tritium/fiber-optic illuminated, it is really never too bright or too dim, except in washout lighting. But then the iron sights are very visible in washout lighting. So there's that.

I want to shoot it more. But one thing I have been able to do, since I've been working at home since March, is handle it a lot. I can keep it on my work desk if I want. So I've practiced with it a lot since that thread, to the extent one can practice in the house. But I have gotten faster with it. I still think I am faster with my G19 big dot express sights, especially in low light - I can see that glowing big dot front sight in dim light in my peripheral vision when I'm looking straight ahead and got the pistol pointed downwards at 60 degrees. But my picking up the dot in the RMR is faster now.

One thing, it seems to me, is that the RMR is unforgiving if you shake. It's easy to make that dot disappear. The RMR has a tiny window. I shot a little IPSC back in the very late 80s and early 90s and had a Tasco ProPoint and I don't remember that being as unforgiving - but then it was a lot bigger and heavier and on a heavier handgun, and I was younger and stronger. Since that time, I shot targets and hunted with Burris Fast Fires. I liked those very much, but then I wasn't using those sights on a defensive handgun, and I could take my time acquiring the dot.

My G17 not my concealed carry gun. My G19 is. I've carried the G17/RMR in a Comp Tac Warrior Holster, one of the holsters I use to carry my G19, and I didn't find the RMR itself to be really detrimental to concealment. The G17 is not ideal for me for concealed carry, but the RMR didn't add any complications to it. So I don't think it would be terribly out of place on a concealed carry gun.

One thing, that RMR can fog up, just like your sunglasses do. Most of my shooting with it was at the end of summer when it's still hella humid here. When I took it out of my A/C'd car, boop, it's fogged up. Doesn't last long, but if you're carrying it as a defensive weapon in your car on a humid day, you MAY find yourself trying to see through a fogged lens at the moment you need it. Some people have suggested fogging is not an issue, but I think it could be. There might be some merit to keeping it warm next to your body when you drive around which might reduce fogging, but often times I take my G19 out of the holster when I've driving.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Micropterus,

seems like ideally, rmr should use some sort of quick release mount so unobstructed use of irons could be a quick contingency.

quote:

Originally posted by konata88:
seems like ideally, rmr should use some sort of quick release mount so unobstructed use of irons could be a quick contingency.

If you put on tall suppressor sights, they cowitness through the glass.

quote:

Originally posted by Micropterus:

quote:

Originally posted by konata88:
seems like ideally, rmr should use some sort of quick release mount so unobstructed use of irons could be a quick contingency.

If you put on tall suppressor sights, they cowitness through the glass.

But not if the glass if fogged up or broken for some reason..... I didn't think about fogged up glass. My glasses get fogged up all the time moving from cold to warm humid. Unlikely situation perhaps, but don't want to tempt Murphy.

ETA: perhaps I'm overthinking as usual I still want to try. Still deciding between Acro and RMR.

Oh okay, if you're talking about the glass fogging up, you're right, there is no seeing through it. And the dot completely disappears until the fog is gone. At least my green dot does. But I don't see any way to have a quick release mount, if there is indeed one, that wouldn't raise the height of the sight so the iron sight would no longer cowitness.

quote:

Originally posted by konata88:
Any thoughts about the Aimpoint Acro? I was planning to get the RMR with 6.5moa dot. But the RMR's are not in stock..... The slide and Acro are in stock (but still need to find the channel liner somewhere).

Is this the RMR you're looking for?
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c...rm02_rmr_type_2.html

One more thing. If you get and RMR with a green dot, like I did, then the glass will be green coated. That green coating on the lens will not let the glow from the front green night sight through. That coating is designed to reflect green light and that's why you can see the dot from the back, but not the front through the glass. It has the same effect on the front night site. You won't see it very well at all, even in pitch dark, through a green coated lens. I never thought of that before I bought it. It's probably not a big deal since my sight are really mostly useful in a washout situation. It's just a curious thing I noticed. If I had oit to do over again, I would have put regular three dot sights on mine and not worried about night sights.

Cat Crap or MSA Fogproof do a pretty good job with fogging.

Quick release is not a good idea, you want a solid mounting to avoid any shifting that can affect your zero. Just like with red dots on an AR's, you want backup iron sights that you can see through the RDS window.

Most factory optic guns use optic adapter plates that put the RDS too high, obscuring the iron sights. Glock MOS, HK VP9, Walther PPQ, CZ P10 all have this issue. FN actually provides tall enough sights right out of the box, but I'm not really interested in the 509.

The DPP has a really thick base and needs really tall sights on a P320, but it is direct to slide with no plate and very solid. Dawson makes some iron sights which work pretty well with the M17 cut - the rear locks into the channel on the DPP and is more solid than the Leupold adjustable rear. Front is a .400" tall fiber optic (or plain black if you prefer). The new P320 RXP cut slides I'm not sure what sights work. Sig X-Ray suppressor sights work with the Romeo 1 Pro, but I am not buying a Romeo anything and I think the DPP is still too thick.

Some exceptions are the P365XL and Glock 43X/48 MOS that take a Shield RMSc or Holosun 407K/507K direct to the slide and the integrated rear notch works fine with the front sight. Imagine that. And the Hellcat uses the same RDS pattern and the factory iron sights work fine as well.

The original Shield RMS can work in a special Glock MOS plate with factory height iron sights, but it's rather pricey for the much lower durability compared to the RMR.

So that really pushes us to one good option - direct to slide mounting with the RDS low enough not to need stupid high irons. I don't like machining on any factory slide because of devaluation, and cutting through the anti-corrosion coating (Tennifer/Melonite/etc.).

After market slides are an option, but instead of that I just bought a Shadow Systems MR920 because they seem to have really thought things out and gotten it right. Stock sights are just a little higher than standard but not really tall. Almost any RDS mounts directly to the slide, and they have spacers to fill any gaps in the front or rear.

And now Trijicon's RMRcc adds yet another mounting pattern that is not compatible with the slide cuts on the P356XL, 43X/48 MOS, or the Hellcat. It is easier to put it on a full width Glock MOS with an aftermarket adapter plate.

Trijicon wants the market to standardize to them, like with the original RMR since it was relatively early to market. Just like micro red dots have mostly standardized to the T1/T2 mounting pattern. But the RMRcc is really pushing it, especially when Holosun's 407K/507K are very very good for the price. Give it some time, maybe the RMRcc will be the standard for small pistols, but it might be too late. Time will tell.

Imagine where we would be if the 1913 rail didn't become the standard for AR uppers and handgun accessory rails? Even Glock is using a 1913 slot on the Gen 5's. Or if scopes didn't have 1", 30mm , or 34mm tubes? Since the US military designated the DPP for the M17/M18 there are going to be a lot of guns out there with DPP cuts, so that has a chance of becoming a standard.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
Cat Crap or MSA Fogproof do a pretty good job with fogging.

I've never used it. If you put that on the inside of a single lens, does it affect the dot reflection?

If the front of the lens only fogged up, it's not a giant deal seeing the dot but not being able to see through the glass since bindon and occluded aiming is pretty natural. But even the slightest fogging on the back side of my RMR obscurs the dot. I'd be concerned about putting any coating on it that might diminish the dot reflection.


Edit: this stuff is recommended specifically for the RMR. I'd still like to see how it affects the dot reflection when applied to the backside of the window. https://www.bigtexoutdoors.com...-lens-cleaner-paste/

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Micropterus,

quote:

Originally posted by konata88:
seems like ideally, rmr should use some sort of quick release mount so unobstructed use of irons could be a quick contingency.

This is simply not a thing. The dimensions you're working with in slide mounted optics just do not allow a QD mount.

Most importantly, if the front lens is obstructed, you should still see the dot and target if you focus on the target.

If the lens is totally obstructed, you can bracket the target with the "ears" of the RMR (Cowan teaches this, along with painting a white or silver line along the top center). If you don't like that method, you can also slightly cant the gun and use the edge of the slide as an improvised sight.

Neither method is perfect, but both are acceptable given the right distance, target size, etc.

Here's a quick video I just shot with my cell phone. Quality isn't great and it distorts the size of the RMR's dot. But you can see that fogging will completely obscure the dot. You can also see that the green front night sight doesn't shine through at all.

I wonder if dot obstruction with fog is a thing with the red dot RMRs. I wonder if they would do any better. The fogging my breathe gave it tonight in my dry 71 degree house is nothing compared to what happened when I took my pistol out of the car back in September. Here I was able to just blow on it and clear the fog. In September with a cool sight and a 70+ degree dew point, the condensation was a little thicker.

Forgive the sound. Hope the link works.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/pKqbrc9oe9wM24YAA

quote:

Originally posted by Micropterus:

I wonder if dot obstruction with fog is a thing with the red dot RMRs. I wonder if they would do any better.

I just fogged the backside of the window with my breath of my red RMR07 on the 4th to highest setting and it turns very faint or disappears completely too. The higher settings make it bloom like a Christmas light.

Was leaning toward Acro but sounds like it has battery life issues. I want battery life measured in years. Not days or even weeks. Now just waiting for all necessary parts to be available - $900+ for this. Starting to debate timing of this.... it’s not like I think this is critical to do now.

Why are suppressor sights so limited? Not available in HD XR, warren or Dawson (for gen3). Go to are the old Trijicon bright and ready?

I thought I responded to this. One of my friends has an SRO. It is, essentially, useless in the dark.

The glass does not transmit light well enough, so it also blocks the sights.

Something to check on the RMR and acro

If you like the ACRO in concept, consider the Holosun 509T.

quote:

Originally posted by Aglifter:
I thought I responded to this. One of my friends has an SRO. It is, essentially, useless in the dark.

The glass does not transmit light well enough, so it also blocks the sights.

Something to check on the RMR and acro

I kinda wish I had gone with the SRO. I think the bigger window might have been better for me.

As far as the tinting blocking the view in the dark, it still has a visible dot, doesn't it? With a little practice, and especially with a non-magnified optic, all you really NEED is the dot, as long as you have vision in both eyes. Your eyes view things pretty much in parallel and seeing the target with your left eye while superimposing the dot on the target with the right eye, even if you can't see through the glass, you can still hit a man sized target at most self defense ranges. It isn't optimal, but with practice it works reasonably well.

Some of the first red dots were occluded, where you looked into the sight with your right eye and saw a dot (and that's all), and looked at the target with your left eye, then sort of merged the two views together and put the dot on the target, and doing that you pretty much had a reasonable chance of hitting the target. It's doesn't produce match grade accuracy, but it works.

I can't really see much of anything through my RMR in the dark, but that big green dot jumps out at me, more so than the night sights. I have confidence I could still use it effectively in the dark when I can't really see through it. This method will pretty much get me on target.

I will state I have no experience with any of these sights. However a good friend does use them for competition quite often. Simply put he is fast as lighting on the Steel Challenge BUT when he has to move during IDPA it slows him down a lot especially on close shots. On the rare IDPA targets that are a distance away the dot is great.