I'm not a good shooter. I can make groups but they aren't as tight and as fast as many of you can do.

At the range w/ general population, I would say I'm above average. In IDPA, I'm probably near median or slightly below (stock pistol), let's say in the 25-50 percentile. I don't practice nearly as much as most of you; at this point, I have neither the time nor funds to do so. But I try to maintain some minimal level of competency for defensive purposes.

I know we've had some past threads on RMR/MOS (not sure what the difference is) but basically RDS on handgun.

At around $900 per gun (slide, RMR, suppresser height irons, holster), I will not be able to convert completely to RMR. Only 1-2 that I actually carry.

I'm guessing that an RMR would allow me to shoot faster (debatable it seems given my current eyesight), allow better precision/accuracy at distance (20+ yards), and perhaps better target focused / awareness.

With aging eyes, should I be considering a conversion to RMR? Or should I hold out on irons for as long as possible, especially if I can't fully convert (would have a mix of irons and RMR)?

I'd have a lot to learn about RMR - brand, model, sight type, sight size, mounting options, etc. I really know nothing. I wanted to get some opinions on whether I should move in this direction before investing effort and time. RMR good for defensive use or primarily for competition?

Would using an RMR detract from iron sight proficiency, what little I have? Or can they co-exist somewhat seamlessly?

Micro Red Dot Sight (MRDS) is a pistol red dot.
RMR is a model of red dot from Trijicon.

The two current footprints for a full size pistol are the Trijicon RMR and Delta Point Pro.
There is the older Romeo1 footprint and a couple others but the RMR and DPP are pretty common now.

Holosun and Swampfox have the RMR footprint.
The Romeo1P and soon to be Romeo2 share the DPP footprint.

Several to choose from now and lots of places mill the slide.
If you have a P226 the RXP slide is available for $599.
Not much more than just the sight and cost of milling and you get a slide with suppressor sights.
https://www.sigsauer.com/rx-sl...-p226-romeo1pro.html

About a year ago the 226 and 229 RX slides were $329
I got a 229 one and still kick myself for not getting a 226 one too even though it has the Romeo1.
But for $45 you can have it milled to fit the RXP/DPP.

Some reading:



https://sigforum.com/eve/forums...0601935/m/6410095474

quote:

Originally posted by konata88:
I'm guessing that an RMR would allow me to shoot faster (debatable it seems given my current eyesight), allow better precision/accuracy at distance (20+ yards), and perhaps better target focused / awareness.

Very likely, with practice. But there is a learning curve with red dots, and you do almost have to relearn some things with a red dot vs. irons, so it'll likely take some work to get back to where you're currently at with irons, and then surpass that thanks to the red dots' advantages.

It's not quite starting back at square one, but it does take some getting used to before acquiring the red dot becomes as natural as iron sights. After all, think of all the reps and hours of training you've put in with irons...

quote:

With aging eyes, should I be considering a conversion to RMR? Or should I hold out on irons for as long as possible, especially if I can't fully convert (would have a mix of irons and RMR)?

You're the only one that can answer that. In general, a red dot should be better for someone with aging eyes. But again, it's not a "miracle solution", and it does take some transitional training as discussed above.

quote:

Would using an RMR detract from iron sight proficiency, what little I have? Or can they co-exist somewhat seamlessly?

I don't have enough experience with red dots to say for sure on that, since I haven't dove head-first into them because they're not authorized for duty use yet. I suspect there are people who would have no issue switching back and forth, and some competitors do compete in both optic and non-optic divisions. But just from my limited experience with range time with pistol red dots, I suspect that without quite a bit of practice time available to put into both, it would be best to focus on one or the other. There's lots of overlap there, but there's also enough different that switching could potentially be troublesome in a stressful defensive situation.

I picked up an RMR and had one of my P320s milled for it a few months back...mainly as an experiment to see what this thing is all about.

I'm far from an experienced red dot shooter, but here are some of my observations (YMMV):

1. It helps with long-distance precision shooting. Taking my time and using a target-focused sight picture, my groups out past 25 yards are significantly tighter than with irons. I think this is because the dot gives you a better view of the target and takes away some of the guess-work that comes with irons... especially as you get further out and your irons obscure more of the target.

2. From a stable shooting stance, shooting at static targets with a two-handed grip, it's faster. I did some testing with my RDS equipped P320 alongside a similarity configured P320 with irons. My times were consistently faster with the RDS equipped gun, both on single targets and when transitioning between multiple targets.

3. This is where the bad starts. From a non-stable shooting stance, or shooting one-handed (especially left-hand only), I frequently lose the dot, which costs time and can be incredibly frustrating. I'm actually far faster and score more hits with irons in situations that involve non-ideal stances or grips. Some of this is would probably improve with more practice, but I've found that the key to finding the dot is having consistent presentation, and that's hard to do when you're working around cover or sprawled out in any number of odd positions...which is actually more likely than not to be the case if you're ever involved in a defensive shooting.

4. Shooting moving targets I'm also slower with the RDS than I am with irons. I think once again it comes down to consistency...having to adjust to the target's position and re-acquire the dot under recoil at the same time has created some problems for me. With irons, you have three visible points of reference (target, front sight, and rear-sight) that you can always see and adjust quickly to bring them into alignment. With the RDS, you only have 2...and one has an annoying habit of disappearing from the window if you don't have your alignment very close to start with. And once again, this is something that you're definitely going to have to deal with in a real-life defensive situation.

5. I don't think working with the RDS is going to have a negative impact on your iron-sight shooting. As long as you can switch between front-sight focus with irons, and target-focus with the RDS, I think working with the dot will actually help you overall, because it forces you to maintain consistency in your presentation. That's a big positive no matter what sighting system you're employing.

Most of my personal issues can probably be overcome with further practice, but that's tough right now with the ammo situation being what it is. I haven't given up on it (I almost did, but decided to give it another chance), but I'm also definitely not ready to put an RDS on my carry or duty gun and take it out on the street.

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:

quote:

Originally posted by konata88:
I'm guessing that an RMR would allow me to shoot faster (debatable it seems given my current eyesight), allow better precision/accuracy at distance (20+ yards), and perhaps better target focused / awareness.

Very likely, with practice. But there is a learning curve with red dots, and you do almost have to relearn some things with a red dot vs. irons, so it'll likely take some work to get back to where you're currently at with irons, and then surpass that thanks to the red dots' advantages.

It's not quite starting back at square one, but it does take some getting used to before acquiring the red dot becomes as natural as iron sights. After all, think of all the reps and hours of training you've put in with irons...

quote:

With aging eyes, should I be considering a conversion to RMR? Or should I hold out on irons for as long as possible, especially if I can't fully convert (would have a mix of irons and RMR)?

You're the only one that can answer that. In general, a red dot should be better for someone with aging eyes. But again, it's not a "miracle solution", and it does take some transitional training as discussed above.

Solid feedback.
Red dots on pistols are becoming a bit more common on the range. Some are the types who want to be apart of the latest trend, thus the latest sights, holsters, grips, triggers, etc.... I get a good laugh when guys are putting RMRs on their conceal guns. Others find it to be an honest switch, as the sight gives reassurance for older eyes, particularly those who have an astigmatism.

I've not bought in, I'm still good with irons and my muscle memory is tuned to that. When the day comes, I've got a G17 that I'll make the investment in and see how it goes.

Thanks guys. Maybe non-committal and just try it out. If things work out well, then maybe I'll consider for carry. I think I can be generally effective at < 10 yards. But maybe because I'm not shooting fast enough. I don't think RMR will help in this case. But I think the RMR may be faster and tighter for 20+ yards. In which case I need to consider more carefully the pragmatic aspects.

In any case, if I buy a slide, I can easily back away if it doesn't work. So doesn't hurt to try I guess (other than $1000 and some time).

I'm thinking:
1. brownell's rmr cut slide (also need channel liner and channel liner tool)
2. RMR07 adjustable led optic
3. I'm going to leave off suppressor sights for now; I'll get if I intend to actually use the RMR for defensive purposes; don't need it for just trying out.
4. anything else I need? How does the RMR affix to the slide? Seems like they just screw in (with lock-tite?)?

Bill seems like about $800-ish.... Not in stock so will have to wait..... But sound about right?

quote:

Originally posted by RichardC:
Some reading:



https://sigforum.com/eve/forums...0601935/m/6410095474

One of these days, I’ll tell a really funny story about that thread.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
One of these days, I’ll tell a really funny story about that thread.

Ooh! Ooh!



Lemme grab some cookies and milk, and settle in on the mat.

Any thoughts about the Aimpoint Acro? I was planning to get the RMR with 6.5moa dot. But the RMR's are not in stock..... The slide and Acro are in stock (but still need to find the channel liner somewhere).

The Acro is limited to 3.5moa dot. On the plus side, battery changed don't require removal of the optic from the slide. While a little bit larger, seems like it's still small enough and may be more resistant to junk / lint / etc affecting the emitter.

GTG? Or RMR is recommended?

When is story time?

Take One (1) lesson from someone who really teaches and knows their stuff. I'm willing to bet, they will find several points where you can/need to change or improve. Really.

Grip-consistency
arms straight out with elbows point out, not down
Stance - consistency
Anticipating recoil- shots go lower

and it goes on...but a good instructor will see these right away.

I'm sure it's just from my lack of practice, but I find picking up the dot with a handgun much slower than acquiring a sight picture with iron sights.

quote:

I'm sure it's just from my lack of practice, but I find picking up the dot with a handgun much slower than acquiring a sight picture with iron sights.

Agree with this, especially for 10 yards. 15 yards starts hitting a boundary. I'm guessing 20-25+ yards the RDS will win, especially for increased precision. At least based on irons vs RDS on my 10/22 at 25-50 yards.

If I go this route, it's mostly for benefit for 15+ yards (speed and precision). Less than 10 yards, irons are fine for me (for now).

quote:

Originally posted by konata88:
Any thoughts about the Aimpoint Acro? I was planning to get the RMR with 6.5moa dot. But the RMR's are not in stock..... The slide and Acro are in stock (but still need to find the channel liner somewhere).

The Acro is limited to 3.5moa dot. On the plus side, battery changed don't require removal of the optic from the slide. While a little bit larger, seems like it's still small enough and may be more resistant to junk / lint / etc affecting the emitter.

GTG? Or RMR is recommended?

When is story time?

Are you planning on concealing it?
Keep in mind that the ACRO is freakishly huge compared to something like an RMR, and would have issues with printing due to the whole thing being the same size all the way back to the rear sight.

Good point. In general, seems like grip side is what prints the most but I do wonder what the sight side impact would be.

Looks like you have both Any (functional) thoughts other than printing?

I have until I find the channel liner to make a decision.

I only have the RMR.

As far as printing, I carry appendix at around 1'oclock, and have no issues with the grip printing. For me, the part that would print the most up front is the top corner of the slide, so having something like an ACRO would amplify that area big time.

The hood of the RMR is right above the belt line, so it is hidden.

I have some concerns, perhaps in ignorance, about debris build up blocking the RMR emitter. Generally the holster is against bare skin. I get considerable build up of lint, dust, dander, etc. Doesn't affect function. But may block the emitter.

Practical concern? Functional concerns here would outweigh printing concerns.

btw, if I go with a RDS, it may first get implemented on the 20, not on the 19. Precision and speed at distance is probably more likely and valuable on the 20 rather than the 19. But still thinking through this.

Konata88, I have aging eyes just not as good as they used to be, moved to a RMR 2moa or maybe it was the 3, any way its the smaller of the dot size, think guys make a mistake on going too big with the dot.

very happy I made the switch been running it on my G17 for 3 years, and it is great, you do have to keep it clean, but very reliable, will take some time to get used to it think it took me about 1k rounds to get in the grove with it, just takes time an work, you can watch cowen sage dynamics on youtube he knows his stuff when it comes to RDS sight, if you watch all his videos you basically get everything he teaches in class, don't waste you dollars on his class and I will leave it at that, or check out Jedi at modern samurai project he as some good posted and if you ever get the time and money take his class.

quote:

Originally posted by konata88:
I have some concerns, perhaps in ignorance, about debris build up blocking the RMR emitter. Generally the holster is against bare skin. I get considerable build up of lint, dust, dander, etc. Doesn't affect function. But may block the emitter.

Practical concern? Functional concerns here would outweigh printing concerns.

Most of my dust build up is behind the glass window.
I give the front and back of the window a quick wipe with a microfiber every night. I keep a q-tip in my desk drawer and give the emitter a quick wipe also.
Never felt like I have to do it for it to function, but it only takes 5 seconds of my time.