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Originally posted by sigNull:

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Originally posted by BRL:
Underwood seems be be the choice for SD ammo. Many choices from 135 gr to 200 gr with it seems the most mention of 180gr. Is 180 the best choice and why?

If I recall correctly, the original 10mm called for a 200 grain bullet at 1200 fps. I think they got that right.

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Originally posted by Grayguns:

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Originally posted by sigNull:
If I recall correctly, the original 10mm called for a 200 grain bullet at 1200 fps. I think they got that right.

That was the load that made 10mm Norma famous, so to speak, but it was also famous for beating up and breaking both guns and shooters.

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Originally posted by Solitar:

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Originally posted by Grayguns:

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Originally posted by sigNull:
If I recall correctly, the original 10mm called for a 200 grain bullet at 1200 fps. I think they got that right.

That was the load that made 10mm Norma famous, so to speak, but it was also famous for beating up and breaking both guns and shooters.

Then that is a challenge for SIG-Sauer to meet.
A solid 40 ounce (unloaded weight) steel-framed pistol which can reliably handle thousands of rounds of 200 grains at 1300 fps and PF of 260 (the same as the .45 Super Express I got from Texas Ammo 200 grains at 1300 fps -- and verified by Sigfreund's chrono).
That's why I "needed" a SIG P220 in stainless steel.

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Originally posted by Jupiter:
I've been a loyal member here for a long time now. I think all of you should chip in and buy me one when they come out.

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Originally posted by Grayguns:

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Originally posted by Jupiter:
I've been a loyal member here for a long time now. I think all of you should chip in and buy me one when they come out.

I agree, Jupe! How you been?

-Bruce

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Originally posted by Grayguns:

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Originally posted by sigNull:

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Originally posted by BRL:
Underwood seems be be the choice for SD ammo. Many choices from 135 gr to 200 gr with it seems the most mention of 180gr. Is 180 the best choice and why?

If I recall correctly, the original 10mm called for a 200 grain bullet at 1200 fps. I think they got that right.

That was the load that made 10mm Naorma famous, so to speak, but it was also famous for beating up and breaking both guns and shooters.

By way of rough comparison, the original Norma 200 gr. load made 240PF. (Bullet weight in grains X velocity in FPS, a useful metric for momentum.) It was soon considered excessive for continuous shooting.

Yet now look at the velocities and power factors claimed for the even heavier loads from the small, boutique ammo makers. Upwards of 250PF and beyond, anyone? One maker advertises a 220gr bullet at 1200FPS! That works out to 264PF!!!

When we built our P220-10's, I believe we wisely cautioned against anything more than the most limited possible use (if any) of these ultra-hot loads. We built a solid 10mm pistol within some limitations posed by the factory P220 slide mass and lockup values, However, that warning was NOT because our pistols were "10mm Lite" per se as some thought at the time, but rather because in my objective opinion based on decades of experience, they are as excessive as they are unnecessary.

I frankly question the testing regimes used to certify some of them as being within SAAMI standards. The original 200gr Norma load was still considered safe enough for the partially unsupported chamber of the early Colt Delta Elite and wouldn't blow cases, whereas the same cannot be said for the hottest of the boutique offerings.

I would apply the same caution to their steady use in ANY 10mm pistol.

-Bruce

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Originally posted by Badkarma 1:
Personally I've been much enamored with the Win . Silvertip load in 10mm. Kills, drops, boinks, dings, just anything that gets in its path.
Dale

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snip

Tried 10mm years ago in a S&W 1066. Man it will put a smile on your face a mile wide. I bet with some Underwood it would be just crazy!

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Originally posted by dosborn81:

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Originally posted by roberth:
Good thing I have a spare Dillon Quick Change Kit.

Oh, I've got the .40/10mm dies already set up in their bushings (Hornady LNL AP), it's the brass that's my problem. If I could score a good deal on some brass, I'd spend a day with the G20 and let it wear me out.

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Originally posted by BRL:
It seems from the little bit of ballistic "testing" I've seen on YouTube that the boutique manufacturers that are loading them up and using 180gr or less have issues with jacket desperation on bullets that were intended to withstand .40 velocities. It seems like there is a fine line to walk being able to generate high velocities while having a bullet that will maintain integrity.

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Hollowpoint bullets that give good penetration and expansion in a revolver at 1,200 to 1,300 fps can become fragile, varmint-class bullets at rifle velocities.

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Originally posted by parabellum:
It's remarkable, if you consider that it has been 30 years or more since SIG-Sauer offered the P220 in a new caliber.

BTW, SIG-Sauer is developing 10mm ammunition for their new blasters.

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Originally posted by TheOtherDave:

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Originally posted by abnmacv:
220 in 10mm with a 5" barrel would make a very nice woods gun.

Yeah, it would. I've been thinking about getting a Glock 20 for that very purpose (and still might, depending on the weight and $$ differences), but... I really like Sigs more.

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Originally posted by Grayguns:

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Originally posted by Solitar:

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Originally posted by Grayguns:

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Originally posted by sigNull:
If I recall correctly, the original 10mm called for a 200 grain bullet at 1200 fps. I think they got that right.

That was the load that made 10mm Norma famous, so to speak, but it was also famous for beating up and breaking both guns and shooters.

Then that is a challenge for SIG-Sauer to meet.
A solid 40 ounce (unloaded weight) steel-framed pistol which can reliably handle thousands of rounds of 200 grains at 1300 fps and PF of 260 (the same as the .45 Super Express I got from Texas Ammo 200 grains at 1300 fps -- and verified by Sigfreund's chrono).
That's why I "needed" a SIG P220 in stainless steel.

40 ounces / conventional design / thousands of rounds @ 260PF, maybe, maybe not. TENS of thousands is unrealistic. 260PF almost certainly exceeds SAAMI specs, my friend. You can maybe get away with it, for a while, but why push that hard when anything in North America will fall to 240?

I believe folks have the impression that such heroic loads are the standard benchmark for 10mm. They are not. There are very good reasons why 10mm Norma was slightly downrated in the 90's, and why the major ammo makers load to "reasonable" levels.

"Reasonable" does not mean "weak" or "inadequate". It means it won't blow the grips off your gun and injure you. We have seen exactly that with two examples of such overloads from a boutique maker. I urge caution and common sense, Solitar. That's all I'm driving at. Thanks for letting me explain this in such detail.

-Bruce

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Originally posted by jeremiahjj:

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Originally posted by dosborn81:

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Originally posted by roberth:
Good thing I have a spare Dillon Quick Change Kit.

Oh, I've got the .40/10mm dies already set up in their bushings (Hornady LNL AP), it's the brass that's my problem. If I could score a good deal on some brass, I'd spend a day with the G20 and let it wear me out.

Doesn't Star still sell it?

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Originally posted by BRL:

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Originally posted by Badkarma 1:
Personally I've been much enamored with the Win . Silvertip load in 10mm. Kills, drops, boinks, dings, just anything that gets in its path.
Dale

That was one of the tests I watched. It performed very well, though it really wasn't much different from a comparable .40 load. If I'm going 10 Mike Mike, I want the WOW factor that separates it from others.