quote:

Originally posted by Grayguns:

Thanks! However, I'm hoping there will be a variant for which the trip to the Volcano Base will be redundant. I'm kind of ahead of myself here.

-Bruce

This one! That's the variant I'm saving for!

quote:

Originally posted by Grayguns:

quote:

Originally posted by Jupiter:

quote:

Originally posted by Grayguns:

quote:

Originally posted by Jupiter:
I've been a loyal member here for a long time now. I think all of you should chip in and buy me one when they come out.

I agree, Jupe! How you been?

-Bruce

Been doing good my friend.
Still spending $$$$$ on guns I don't need. Pretty hard to believe, right?
I'm excited about this 10mm P-220. I NEED one to keep my S&W 610 company.
I may splurge and send it to the best Sig Sauer Smith on the Planet for the VOLCANO package.

Thanks! However, I'm hoping there will be a variant for which the trip to the Volcano Base will be redundant. I'm kind of ahead of myself here.

-Bruce

Sounds intriguing!
I love the 10mm but have always been a little skeptical about the long term durability of most pistols that are chambered for the round. Something that never concerned me with the N-Frame 610. What ever comes out, I hope it's Over-Built in all the right places.

Jere "I can speak with authority on what happens when a reloader confuses 9.5 GRAINS for 9.5 GRAMS as he weighs powder."

9.5 gram = 146.6 grain

Holy sheepdip.... Actually, I'm surprised it's possible to get that much powder in the case...

quote:

Originally posted by Jupiter:
Sounds intriguing!
I love the 10mm but have always been a little skeptical about the long term durability of most pistols that are chambered for the round.

^^^ This!
.45 or .40 frames adapted to 10mm.
Sure they could take a few dozen rounds of 180 grains at 1250 fps but a steady diet of thousands of rounds of practice, competition and duty ammo best stay under 180 grains at 1100 fps or long term durability wouldn't be.

From SIG-Sauer I'd hope for a solid heavy frame and fully supported barrel that could take thousands of rounds of 180 grains at nearly 1300 fps Federal Vital-Shoks and comfortably handle hundreds of rounds 200 grains at 1350 fps. The latter so that a hunter or mountain walker could confidently carry the heavier solids and practice enough to be confident in putting down a black bear, large mountain lion, feral hog or 300 lb feral human quickly enough in an attack. Why such handgun load -- because, as many have said, in many such cases against dangerous North American critters, even a .44 magnum may be marginal and what really is needed is at least a carbine. Yes, I've read the arguments that a moderate .45 is entirely enough and thus a moderate 10mm (180 grains at 1000 fps) would also be enough.

Okay, maybe the above is a bridge too far.
Would enough be a solid heavy frame and fully supported barrel that could take hundreds of rounds of 180 grains at nearly 1300 fps Federal Vital-Shoks and comfortably handle dozens of rounds 200 grains at 1350 fps ?

I'd rather not worry about damaging the gun from a few boxes of 200 grain, 1300 fps loads.

Given the extensive development of JHP loads in 9, .40 and .45, and the minimal development of JHP loads in 10mm, I don't get the appeal of 10mm as a people only defensive caliber. What I do get, is the 10mm as a woodsman's pistol, that offers a high percentage of the shootability of a regular service pistol, with the ability to launch heavier loads that might stop a bear or moose.

To succeed on animals, we are talking about penetrating 180-200 grain bullets driven at 1,100 - 1,300 fps. The problem, as seen for example in the Glock, the better the load is on animals, the farther you get out of the reliability envelope for reliable function. I understand that Glock did no function testing of the model 20 and 29 with heavy penetrator loads. Hopefully Sig will test these loads in the development process.

To be attractive to me, the Sig needs to stand up to a moderate diet of loads like the Federal Trophy Bonded (as I recall 180 grains at 1,280 fps) load. If it can do that, it effectively becomes a modernized S&W 1066, with a wider selection of sights, magazines, grips and other accessories. Only time will tell if the average 10mm consumer in Alaska will pony up twice what a Glock 29 costs, and then learn DA/SA. They will have me as a customer, although I suspect they need to sell more than three to call this a financial success.

quote:

Originally posted by Grayguns:

quote:

Originally posted by BRL:

quote:

Originally posted by Badkarma 1:
Personally I've been much enamored with the Win . Silvertip load in 10mm. Kills, drops, boinks, dings, just anything that gets in its path.
Dale

That was one of the tests I watched. It performed very well, though it really wasn't much different from a comparable .40 load. If I'm going 10 Mike Mike, I want the WOW factor that separates it from others.

What "comparable .40 load" are you referring to?

The 175 Silver Tip at an advertised 1290 FPS is FAR more powerful than any .40, or most anything else for that matter. It's the specific load we recommend for practical use in our P220-10's. ON our chrono, test samples from a 5" Bar-Sto made every bit of 1300+.

A 175 @ 1290 is 10mm Norma. So is a 200 @ 1200.

A 200 @ 1250+ is borderline and possibly exceeds SAAMI specs.

A 200 @ 1300? Way overboard.

-Bruce

Maybe comparable load was the wrong term. I based that off of the test they did here

http://youtu.be/RmNL30om6Eo

At the 4:40 mark in the video they say a 165 gr silvertip in .40 gave them the same or similar measured velocity - 1,170 fps out of a Glock 22 (according to this narrator the 1,290 fps advertised is out of a 5.5" barrel) and similar muzzle energy. The .40 165gr and 180gr gave similar or better penetration depths as well, though I could not find a video test by TNOutdoors9 of the .40.

It has to be true, I saw it on the interwebz

quote:

Originally posted by Grayguns:

quote:

Originally posted by Jupiter:

quote:

Originally posted by Grayguns:

quote:

Originally posted by Jupiter:
I've been a loyal member here for a long time now. I think all of you should chip in and buy me one when they come out.

I agree, Jupe! How you been?

-Bruce

Been doing good my friend.
Still spending $$$$$ on guns I don't need. Pretty hard to believe, right?
I'm excited about this 10mm P-220. I NEED one to keep my S&W 610 company.
I may splurge and send it to the best Sig Sauer Smith on the Planet for the VOLCANO package.

Thanks! However, I'm hoping there will be a variant for which the trip to the Volcano Base will be redundant. I'm kind of ahead of myself here.

-Bruce

So.....More things are going to happen?

Perhaps buy it from bruce with stuff already done? Oh my goodness...I am in!

Mark

I was early to the 10mm bandwagon. Picked up my Colt Delta Elite in late 1988 or 89. At the time, I tried a lot of the ammo available. But I mostly shot PMC. Both 170 and 200 grain due to availability and price. I came to despise that brass when reloading. At the time, I thought it was just thick and didn't resize well. But looking back, I can now assume the Colt's unsupported chamber was part of my problem. That ammo always felt plenty hot to me. I may have a few new boxes still. I may have to pull it out and see how it matches up to today's Remington and Federal loads.

Now I primarily rely on Remington. Of all the factory loads I've tried over the years, only the PRVI stuff has been a disappointment. That stuff is weak and the brass really poor.

I've never tried the "hot" stuff. I would not put it in my Colt for obvious reasons. And I sure don't want to try it in my FBI lettered 1076. I did pick up a Glock 20 this year so the thought crossed my mind again. But I really have no need for it other than the fun factor. Perhaps I will some day.

While we are talking ammo, here's some of my collection from over the years. I said I was early to the 10mm bandwagon. And I'm still along for the ride. Bring on my P220.


dwp10mm

This message has been edited. Last edited by: dwp10mm,

Is it likely that companion barrels in 40S&W or 357Sig will be available for the 10x220? I always like the idea of double or triple-threat guns...

^^^^
I love the idea, but they'd have to do ribbed magazines again like they did with the 9mm 220s, wouldn't they?

quote:

Originally posted by .45ACP:

quote:

Originally posted by Grayguns:

Thanks! However, I'm hoping there will be a variant for which the trip to the Volcano Base will be redundant. I'm kind of ahead of myself here.

-Bruce

This one! That's the variant I'm saving for!

No, please don't wait on my unconsidered remark! Get the first 10 you can and I'll get the action handled as a favour to you. I spoke without thinking. I lose 100 I.Q. points and 2/3 of my questionable common sense when I'm sick like I've been all week.

-Bruce

Might we see a 12 round standard* magazine instead of single stack?

*Not extending below the grip.

That wouldn't be a P220.

Yeah, I'm actually a bit confused as to why they decided to do this on the P220 platform instead of the 227 - the 10mm cartridge is actually the same width as .40S&W, of course, and so you can just as easily make double/staggered-stack magazines for it. The grip is already going to have to be longer as it is to accommodate the additional length, but not much, and making the mags staggered or double stack wouldn't really make the grip that much bigger, sooo....why not? Glock did it with the G20 for a reason and it worked fine, it's no bigger than the grip on the G21.

I also would expect to see this thing hold a round or two more than the .45 caliber P220 since the cartridges are slightly thinner, so like 9 or 10 rounds in the magazine (probably 9) versus 8 in the .45 version.

And that leads me to admit, to be fair about the whole "why didn't you go with a double-stack magazine, Sig?" issue, you're still looking at 10 or 11 rounds total of 10mm, which is certainly nothing to sneeze at. That's quite nice...

quote:

Originally posted by AndrewP228:
Yeah, I'm actually a bit confused...

Yes, I'd say you are, considering how miraculous this is to be happening at all.

AndrewP228, nothing to be confused about. They already have a stainless P220 frame, the only frames currently in production for P227 are aluminum. They're starting with the P220 10mm as it's the simpler first step. Once P227 stainless frames are in production, I'd bet a 10mm P227 would be likely.

Also due to increased girthiness of the P227 grip, the market is probably larger for the P220 version. The P220/45 still outsells the P227/45.

Ok, cool, both fair points. I did kind of think about the girth of the grip but, of course, having larger than average hands it almost certainly wouldn't be an issue for me (the USP .45 and G21 both feel like the perfect size in my hands, for example). And I never considered the point about the steel frame because I didn't know they were doing it in the steel frame to begin with, I didn't know if they were going to go with the aluminum frame or the steel one...do you guys think an aluminum frame (like the 227's) could hold up to full-power 10mm if properly engineered? I don't see why it couldn't.

quote:

Originally posted by AndrewP228:
And I never considered the point about the steel frame because I didn't know they were doing it in the steel frame to begin with, I didn't know if they were going to go with the aluminum frame or the steel one...

It was in the OP

quote:

do you guys think an aluminum frame (like the 227's) could hold up to full-power 10mm if properly engineered? I don't see why it couldn't.

It won't

If this does happen, it will be my 1st new 10mm since my original Colt Delta Elite.