I think optics will not be across the board because they are just too expensive for the mass.

I think they are to fragile and if you really use the gun they won't last. Just look at how beat up iron sights become after range use etc.

I do believe some optics are great and don't have the above problems ie. my sig sauer p365 SAS. I love it, its easy to use and it's practically unbreakable. It's built in doesn't stick up. It just works.

Just a thought, the answer to this can be yes. You do not necessarily lose irons with an optic depending on the pistol optic combo. A good training course for a dot should have a dot failure iron-sighted component.

quote:

Originally posted by toivo:
I have logged so many hours shooting bullseye with an optic that I would be afraid to have one on a defensive pistol. I'd be controlling my breathing and waiting for the buzzer while the bad guy gunned me down.

If I ever have the misfortune to be in a self defense shooting incident, I'll probably unload and show clear to the guy standing behind me.

quote:

Originally posted by 18DAI:
I've seen a few units not torked down properly, sail off the gun during firing. Also saw one that wasn't using the proper plate and wound up mounted at an angle on the slide.

Makes me wonder how these people made it to the range without incident!

quote:

Originally posted by RichardC:

quote:

Originally posted by toivo:
I have logged so many hours shooting bullseye with an optic that I would be afraid to have one on a defensive pistol. I'd be controlling my breathing and waiting for the buzzer while the bad guy gunned me down.

If I ever have the misfortune to be in a self defense shooting incident, I'll probably unload and show clear to the guy standing behind me.

You both win the internet today.
Best comments for sure!

People who either don't have mechannical hobbies or don't do PMCS as part of their daily routine generally lack the 'touch' needed to install something as simple as a RDS. They have no knowledge of the use of locktite, or any proportion of how much torque to use or not use.

quote:

Originally posted by offgrid:

quote:

Originally posted by 18DAI:
I've seen a few units not torked down properly, sail off the gun during firing. Also saw one that wasn't using the proper plate and wound up mounted at an angle on the slide.

Makes me wonder how these people made it to the range without incident!

quote:

Originally posted by SgtGold:
People who either don't have mechannical hobbies or don't do PMCS as part of their daily routine generally lack the 'touch' needed to install something as simple as a RDS. They have no knowledge of the use of locktite, or any proportion of how much torque to use or not use.

*PPPPPBBBBBBZZZZT!*

You torque until it strips then back off a 1/2 turn.

quote:

Originally posted by RichardC:

quote:

Originally posted by SgtGold:
People who either don't have mechannical hobbies or don't do PMCS as part of their daily routine generally lack the 'touch' needed to install something as simple as a RDS. They have no knowledge of the use of locktite, or any proportion of how much torque to use or not use.

*PPPPPBBBBBBZZZZT!*

You torque until it strips then back off a 1/2 turn.

Isn't that what the Locktite is for?

quote:

Originally posted by SgtGold:


Isn't that what the Locktite is for?

My friend told me to use Heli-Coils and JB Weld. I'm trying to find smaller Heli-coils so I don't have to hammer them in, like my last install.

quote:

Originally posted by SgtGold:

quote:

Originally posted by RichardC:

quote:

Originally posted by SgtGold:
People who either don't have mechannical hobbies or don't do PMCS as part of their daily routine generally lack the 'touch' needed to install something as simple as a RDS. They have no knowledge of the use of locktite, or any proportion of how much torque to use or not use.

*PPPPPBBBBBBZZZZT!*

You torque until it strips then back off a 1/2 turn.

Isn't that what the Locktite is for?

HEY I RESEMBLE THAT COMMENT!!!! I have prayed at the Church of “If it jams force it. If it breaks…ehhh you needed a new one anyway.” Amen.

As for the original topic. I have thought long and hard about dots on pistols and have “played” with one on a .22. My personal thoughts are…

-They ARE the wave of the future.
-I don’t think the “future” is here yet. Getting closer to be sure but not quite there.
-You ABSOLUTELY would need to put it a fair bit of training to acclimate to a dot and get “natural” with it.
-For distance work they are pretty amazing.
-For up close defensive distance….I dunno. I am sure with a fair bit of training they are faster but at 7-10 yards I dunno if the juice is with the squeeze.
-As folks have said I can totally see how a dot would make you a better irons shooter as it absolutely seems to point out your fundamentals failings.

So for me personally at this time I am going to stay with irons for a few reasons.
1-I don’t really want to switch platforms and I don’t want to mill a slide or give up a dovetail for a backup sight.
2-With the state of the world and my own personal circumstances I just don’t think I would have the time and ammo to devote to bring myself up to speed.
3-I already keep up with optics on my rifles and flashlight batteries and I am not sure I want to devote time to another battery powered sight. Human failing to be sure I am just being honest with myself.
4-I just don’t know if I want to deal with training myself to deal with various dot failure modes/fogging/etc. after looking into it none of it seems like a deal breaker but you should prepare / train for it and I don’t know if I am ready to do so, although shooting Occluded is no issue as I have shot occluded gun sights.
5-They still seem kind of all over the map in terms of durability, mounting, battery, feature set etc. I think we need to move a bit more towards a standard and that will elevate the breed.
6-I have a ton of firearms and I am not ready to add to that with something cut for a MRDS at this time.

Now all that said this is NOT me saying MRDS are stupid or a fad or whatever. It is only me saying why I PERSONALLY am not ready to jump into that particular lake at this time. If you are a new shooter or looking for a new gun, I would HIGHLY recommend getting something cut for an optic if for no other reason to give you options. I would also say after a little experimentation I think you will be a better shooter overall if you learn to run a dot at a high level but for me at this instant in time I am going be an old dog who doesn’t want to learn a new trick……………yet.

My aging eyes appreciate red dots. I think the arguments some of you guys make are the same arguments my grandfather had when he moved from an open sighted Model 94 30-30 to a scoped Model 70 .270 Win (fragile, slow to use, it's a fad, etc.).

quote:

Originally posted by BBMW:
The main advantage seems to be the ability to focus on the target, and still have the sight in sharp focus also, and not have to work with three focal planes. Do you not find this useful?

I guess I did not shoot enough ammo to notice the advantages. My buddy has been too busy to make it back to my house, I will bear that in mind on his next visit.

Lock N Load

Michael
USMC Ret

[/QUOTE]

quote:

Originally posted by cslinger:
As for the original topic. I have thought long and hard about dots on pistols and have “played” with one on a .22. My personal thoughts are…

-They ARE the wave of the future.
-I don’t think the “future” is here yet. Getting closer to be sure but not quite there.

My thoughts on them are evolving.

A year ago or so my thought was I didn't trust the idea of "sensitive" optics and electronics sitting atop a piece of machinery that would be banging back-and-forth violently. Well, they seem to be working, so that's no longer so much a concern on my part.

Now my thoughts are I might like to try a pistol with an optic, but ...

1. I might really, really like it. Then what of my handguns with iron sights?
   
2. Do I really need optics?
   
3. Do I want the additional bulk in my carry pistols?
   

As to Point The First: If I end up really really liking optics, and no longer care for iron sights, it's either replace or retrofit everything I own--plus every holster. Yikes!

As to Point The Second: I've begun to practice differently. More point-shooting at defensive ranges. I'm getting to the point I can fairly reliably and consistently hit w/in one minute of bad guy at five yards. Quickly, too. Without even being able to clearly see the sights well. If I keep practicing this way, I should be able to do so out to seven yards. So do I even need optics?

Lastly, Point The Third: Carrying IWB, there's already enough back there poking me in the back. Do I want more?

So I'm rethinking it, but I don't know as I'm all that hot to make a move just yet.

I won't have one. Don't need it, don't want it.

I get the idea. And it may make it easier to accurately shoot a handgun. Especially for those with failing eyesight. If it helps those guys I am all for it.

But, I don't want one either. And I don't understand putting them on small concealed carry pistols. Seems like it defeats the purpose of a "small" concealable pistol. Regards 18DAI

quote:

Originally posted by 18DAI:
I get the idea. And it may make it easier to accurately shoot a handgun. Especially for those with failing eyesight. If it helps those guys I am all for it.

But, I don't want one either. And I don't understand putting them on small concealed carry pistols. Seems like it defeats the purpose of a "small" concealable pistol. Regards 18DAI

Well said, I agree.

Maybe for those who have issues carrying a bigger concealed pistol, and also have failing eye sight.

Simple. Whatever floats your boat.

I have VERY old eyes (79) along with cataracts and glaucoma in both eyes. Strictly SD shooting, no competition.

I have no need for optics. Under five yards, I look "through" the sights or use a high pectoral hold at speed and consistently shoot hand size groups or smaller.

Granted, given my old eyes, my groups are not as good at longer distances. Rather than heart size groups, somebody's still gonna get a bunch of JHP's in their lungs.

Compared to the sixties, when I started, this is the Golden Age for handgun selection, sighting innovations, ammo and training. Select whatever works for YOU.

Not all dimensions are created equal. For a pocket carry, yeah, it's not happening. For a holster gun, adding a bulge on the top of the gun seems to have little effect on the guns carry characteristics, especially if it doesn't add width to the gun.

quote:

Originally posted by 18DAI:
I get the idea. And it may make it easier to accurately shoot a handgun. Especially for those with failing eyesight. If it helps those guys I am all for it.

But, I don't want one either. And I don't understand putting them on small concealed carry pistols. Seems like it defeats the purpose of a "small" concealable pistol. Regards 18DAI