With repetition, dry fire, live fire, do you get to the point where you can just pull the optic-mounted pistol from concealment, fast, and the dot is 'right there' on target, again and again, smoothly, no worries? If so, how long does that take? I am far from that point FYI.

quote:

Originally posted by Brother:
With repetition, dry fire, live fire, do you get to the point where you can just pull the optic-mounted pistol from concealment, fast, and the dot is 'right there' on target, again and again, smoothly, no worries? If so, how long does that take? I am far from that point FYI.

Yes.
Depends on a shooter, time devoted, whether practice is done right etc. Even lens size to some extent. Don't need live fire at all to get it figured out. I don't remember exactly, I think it was about 2 months of dry fire just for a basic two handed draw at a target in front of me to stop being a liability. I am not too talented though.

I have some 365’s. Two of them have a Holosun. I can’t tell the difference if I carry the one with an optic or the one without. Yes, on paper it adds some ounces and an extra inch, but if I did a blind test I couldn’t tell which one was on. Cslinger is pretty spot on in his analysis. 10 to 15 yards and in I think it’s a wash if you have gotten competent with an optic. Beyond that, good eyes or bad, optics demolish irons. It’s just physiology. Instead of 3 focal planes there is 1. Optics rule. I was a slow adopter but I can admit when I get it wrong.

I actually had the chance to play with a Hellcat with an optic recently. It only took about 5-10 presentations to reliably pick up the dot. Could be that gun just pointed similar to what I am used to I dunno.

At any rate even though I hem and haw back and forth about it I still find myself not wanting to dork with another piece of tech on my firearms. I shoot a fairly wide variety of stuff and I just don’t want to chase battery changes on the guns I keep at the ready. It seems silly but I have enough battery operated gear and stuff to worry about and I just don’t want my stashed HD stuff to add to the list.

At the end of the day I just don’t see them as force multipliers like I do on a rifle, given the normal role of a pistol.

Now again this is not me saying that they are worthless or bad or anything to that effect. It is also me freely admitting to relying on “statistics” or “assumptions” as to what a potential pistol fight will bring and I do realize that thought may be some folly at play, but for ME personally at this point in both the tech maturity, my perceived needs and my comparisons I am likely still staying in the irons camp for the foreseeable future. I do still firmly believe pistol optics are the way forward I just don’t think they will pay the same level of dividends as rifle optics brought.

Now as I always like to point out. I am not a door kicker, LEO, gun fighter nor angry crossing guard and I have no desire or duty to run towards or visit violence on anything. I am just a trigger puller who has been blessed to play with a bunch of toys and have been lucky enough to develop some personal opinions based on actual use.

So once more. Optics are the way of the future. They just aren’t for me personally yet but we will see what the future brings as both the tech and my opinions mature.

Take care, shoot safe.
Chris.

I have optic sights on several Walthers that I own.
Two events made me move to optics. One, with a Walther target model, I was in the 10 ring at 25 yds. in an indoor range. Hadn't really shot that well with semi-custom 1911's in a long time.

Second was the realization (I'm slow on the pick-up) that a perp likely wouldn't give me time to pick up my reading glasses and without them, it was getting harder to focus on my sights.

I was converted. But much like having a light rail, I realized that neither advantage came without a cost.

In order to use both to my best advantage, I have to practice with them and build muscle memory. I don't shoot nearly as much as I once did. So, in a true emergency, if I fall back on my training, I could come-up short.

I've watched my red dot get washed out on a dark night with bright outside lighting. If I had to make a shot, it would cost me time to adjust.

There is a huge advantage for me using an optic at a distance. Up close, less so. It would take more practice time that I'm willing to give it, to not have it slow me down at close range, where even a fuzzy front sight picture is faster.

I've had similar second thoughts about light rails. You can certainly blind an intruder. You can certainly light yourself up or disclose your location. In very bright light my red dot is somewhat washed out. So, at night, I found myself not using my light in favor of a brighter dot on my optic.

The advantage/disadvantage seems to vary with the scenario and if either is on a defensive pistol, then you can't control the scenario.

Since I can't have it both ways, I can have guns with and without. That seemed the better solution for me.

quote:

Originally posted by Brother:
With repetition, dry fire, live fire, do you get to the point where you can just pull the optic-mounted pistol from concealment, fast, and the dot is 'right there' on target, again and again, smoothly, no worries? If so, how long does that take? I am far from that point FYI.

I shot my optics weekly for quite a while before it became pretty much second nature, then started doing around 20 practice draws a day and it's gotten to where it's right there when I draw.

I have plenty of buddies who have an optic on their carry weapon, I have considered it but ultimately don't want more weight on my pistol or belt. I could see myself getting another carry pistol so I could have that option if I wanted or needed it.

Decided to reanimate this thread.

Ken Hackathorn put out a video on his opinion of ust utility of red dots on pistols. Figure this would be a good place to post it.

At Sig freedom day, I spend the day shooting both with and without optics.

By the end of the day, I was noticeably faster and more accurate with optics.

I had not shot optics much before.

My eyes are old, it seemed like I take more time to focus without optics.

I could hit the center of mass on the steel targets and the steel plates with both.

Now to choose my optics.

Way too many choices for an optics noobee.

I didn’t read all 12 pages.. but I’ll mention this. The shooting this week where 2 Leo’s were killed and the 3rd was shot in the leg and he went around the house and fired 1 shot at a long distance and killed the perp. Look closely he had an optic, looked like a Trijicon Rmr. That alone shows you what an advantage they are. I doubt many people could pull that off with just irons.
25 plus years ago you had Departments/ people saying why do we need these Tritium night sights on our gun and now it’s not even a question. Same thing here, I think red dots will become thE new norm.

quote:

Originally posted by BBMW:
Decided to reanimate this thread.

Ken Hackathorn put out a video on his opinion of ust utility of red dots on pistols. Figure this would be a good place to post it.

[FLASH_VIDEO]<iframe frameborder="0" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/jjlL0hYgdag" width="560"></iframe>[/FLASH_VIDEO]

I think Ken put his foot in his mouth pretty hard. He's right that you need to develop proficiency with them, but to claim that there is "no advantage at 10 yards or less (added the distance for clarity) " is foolish. Maybe there is "no advantage" to someone that has been shooting mostly irons for 50+ years, but there is a whole population of shooters that are coming up on optics and more that have seen the light and not going back (like me).

This message has been edited. Last edited by: DaBigBR,

I need to bite the bullet and put one on one of my pistols just so I can become more proficient with them. For an HD or carry pistol I'm in the aint broke, aint fixing camp but seeing my opponents scores in USPSA who use a dot there is an advantage to good hits at distance. Irons still seem to get the quicker hits out of the holster though.
My reservations are in seeing how many go down and from all brands. Batteries and electronics don't seem to fare well on a violently reciprocating slide.

He didn't say there was no advantage. He said he thought they may actually be better for new shooter, who don't have to transition off of irons. He also said they have a distinct advantage at longer ranges. He did say they have no advantage at ten yards or less.

quote:

Originally posted by DaBigBR:

quote:

Originally posted by BBMW:
Decided to reanimate this thread.

Ken Hackathorn put out a video on his opinion of ust utility of red dots on pistols. Figure this would be a good place to post it.

[FLASH_VIDEO]<iframe frameborder="0" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/jjlL0hYgdag" width="560"></iframe>[/FLASH_VIDEO]

I think Ken put his foot in his mouth pretty hard. He's right that you need to develop proficiency with them, but to claim that there is "no advantage" is foolish. Maybe there is "no advantage" to someone that has been shooting mostly irons for 50+ years, but there is a whole population of shooters that are coming up on optics and more that have seen the light and not going back (like me).

quote:

Originally posted by BBMW:
He didn't say there was no advantage. He said he thought they may actually be better for new shooter, who don't have to transition off of irons. He also said they have a distinct advantage at longer ranges. He did say they have no advantage at ten yards or less.

quote:

Originally posted by DaBigBR:

quote:

Originally posted by BBMW:
Decided to reanimate this thread.

Ken Hackathorn put out a video on his opinion of ust utility of red dots on pistols. Figure this would be a good place to post it.

[FLASH_VIDEO]<iframe frameborder="0" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/jjlL0hYgdag" width="560"></iframe>[/FLASH_VIDEO]

I think Ken put his foot in his mouth pretty hard. He's right that you need to develop proficiency with them, but to claim that there is "no advantage" is foolish. Maybe there is "no advantage" to someone that has been shooting mostly irons for 50+ years, but there is a whole population of shooters that are coming up on optics and more that have seen the light and not going back (like me).

I should have included the "at 10 yards or less", because he's wrong about that.

quote:

Originally posted by BBMW:
Decided to reanimate this thread.

Ken Hackathorn put out a video on his opinion of ust utility of red dots on pistols. Figure this would be a good place to post it.

[FLASH_VIDEO]<iframe frameborder="0" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/jjlL0hYgdag" width="560"></iframe>[/FLASH_VIDEO]

I just watched the video. Ken didn't say much I disagreed with.

I do however believe they are here to stay.

Hackathorn is right that there is no difference at 10 yards. On a flat range. With a full sized target. In perfect lighting. When no one is shooting back at you.

When any of those conditions change, there is a huge difference.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
Hackathorn is right that there is no difference at 10 yards. On a flat range. With a full sized target. In perfect lighting. When no one is shooting back at you.

When any of those conditions change, there is a huge difference.

Interesting.

How well does the average group of officers do on a course of fire if their dot is turned off/disabled without their knowledge? I'm sure this scenario has been tried. Share the results if you don't mind.
Obviously, someone with extensive training would adjust with little time loss.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
Hackathorn is right that there is no difference at 10 yards. On a flat range.

I would disagree even with that. One month in a year I stop shooting the dots and shoot irons instead as a refresher and exercise for the eyes. At that distance if target is reduced just a bit from a giant ass USPSA to a little more realistic IPSC, the A zone hits get either slower or rarer.

I'll go out on a limb here as someone who shoots a lot and watches others shoot. There is NOT a single distance/situation where a optic shooter with backup irons is at a disadvantage.

quote:

Originally posted by hrcjon:
I'll go out on a limb here as someone who shoots a lot and watches others shoot. There is NOT a single distance/situation where a optic shooter with backup irons is at a disadvantage.

Do you think most people have usable backup Iron sights on their red dot pistols?